Helen Joyce finally makes it to Women's Hour today from 10am

[Another2Cats]

Just saw this:

Helen Joyce @ HJoyceGender
Morning all! Guess where I'm off to this fine day - Broadcasting House to discuss the @ ForWomenScot judgment, 4 weeks on, on @ BBCWomansHour! Do listen in. I'm looking forward to debunking some shocking disinformation, and reminding an astonished world that Women Have Rights Too

https://x.com/HJoyceGender/status/1922534653166006316

[EDIT]

Yes, I know I put "Women's" instead of "Woman's" in the title

you can write in and ask them?

I got a reply to my mail, which said yeah yeah we get so many we don't guarantee to read them all and we deffo don't answer (as expected)

but it also says - and i must have overlooked this on their website so i need to go back and check - that they can read out any part of your mail on air (with name) unless you explicitly ask them not to. So beware if you do write in with your full name on your mail.

Excellent point.

I know! She really could not keep the panic out of her voice.

Going down cul-de-sacs about little kids and why won't you call a transwoman a transwoman 😄

Helen is a great speaker. She thinks fast, talks fast and leaves no gaps. I've never heard her flounder.

But she also comes across incredibly reasonable.

Not something you can really counter with panicked questioning, sounding ever more fearful and terrified of putting a foot wrong.

And still doing it! And having to apologise!!!

You and I both know they won't ask that question even though they absolutely should.

I must be a boiled frog because I thought Nuala was pretty good. I started to wonder if she had peaked (and not really because of the 'he' ). But i don't think so - she clearly isn't across the detail and doesn't have an in depth knowledge to develop questions based on the response. But still, she allowed Helen the space to put her case, and as a PP said, within the BBC constraints.

In the interview with White I thought Nuala was a bit unfriendly as the interview went on, and pressed white with further questions in quite a critical way. It had the tone of a political interview. She similarly pressed helen with the implications of what she was saying. It's right to put the other point of view. She did it in both interviews. That's what I want.

My criticism of the questions is that they focused too much on language and toilets, and perhaps too much on RMW. Helen was extremely clear and really cut through. I don"t think it was a good idea to make the comment about RMW's size in a loo encounter, but that's my only suggestion. I get why its an important point but I think normie listeners wouldn't react well to that.

It must have been frustrating to have questions about little boys in the ladies, rather than prisons, sport etc.

I am a bit concerned about WH doing a 'both sides' on the law when the law has just been made very clear. But I also think we should hear all the views. So mixed on that.

How do you write to WH direct?

Damn I missed it - does anyone know if you can listen somewhere?

I imagine that was the editor’s call after a slew of raging emails from blokes and transmaidens.

Yes, this.

Bathrooms and Girls’ Education in Africa - The Borgen Project

Stark data in here on why girls need single sex toilets in order to access their human right of education, and I bet if anyone bothered crunching or even collecting some data it would be absolutely the same in the UK.

We know girls are attacked at a higher rate in mixed sex toilets and avoid using them. I'd bet good money the attendance of girls in schools with only mixed sex toilets (whether by stealth or openly so) is lower than in schools with really single sex toilets.

You can't identify out of menstruation, more's the pity.

The phase “rabbit in the headlights” springs to mind about the presenter. Her pathetic lecturing of Helen the earnest “others may not agree”. So fucking what? Utterly lame.

My conclusion after listening to that was the presenter needs to resign forthwith and Woman’s Hour needs to be handed to Helen to present .

This whole saga is encapsulated in women saying no to men and they cannot bear it. They are going to tell on us to the European court of human rights. Too funny.

It just sounded like the lame gotcha it was. It’s all they have once the appeal to “kindness” hasn’t worked.

I just think that people would understand it better or accept it more if it were acknowledged that it is difficult for a transperson who is used to going in the toilet of their choice and believes they pass (whether they do or not).

Does anyone really think that Robin Moira White would be threatened by other men if he went into the Gents?

the point about the "size loo encounter" is that many many many people who come at us with the "gosh, be reasonable these ladies can't go in the men's" have never actually seen, in the flesh, a man who thinks he's a woman. So they think they're all dainty little girlies who are ABSOLUTELY indistinguishable from their mum, sister, wife or daughter.

And similarly, many people may have heard "we now hate the transwoman Robin on to talk about men's rights", or seen that written in the programme description (i may have paraphrased) and been baffled when a man's voice boomed out of their speaker. And Robin has talked in the past about keeping that authoritative (eg manly) voice for Reasons.

So i don't think a tiny comment like that is wrong at all. It is exactly right. Because if my tiny 84 year old mum encountered a man in the ladies, she would probably just exit right away and wee herself rather than say anything or use a toilet a man was in (she may even think she had gone in the wrong one). She certainlny wouldn't say anything.

Many many many people have actually no contact point on this subject at all so the more we talk about it the better.

It will be on BBC Sounds at some point but isn't currently available as of me posting this:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/m002c35m

It’s never going to be ok for absolutely everyone. However I can be very sure that statistically everyone is better off in a single sex design that has door gaps. The unisex ones never have door gaps. In any emergency (assault or medical) I believe it is much more likely that the occupant is rescued in time. Also, I believe that being able to be seen and heard in a cubicle actually prevent assaults happening inside them in the first place. Having single sex toilets with door gaps is much safer for those with medical conditions such as neurological or heart conditions. Maybe if you talk to her about when people are critically vulnerable - the safest toilets are the traditional single sex designs. That’s the why.

I also thought Nuala did a decent job. It is her role to put the alternate view and it allowed Helen to make the relevant arguments. I can’t imagine Anita Rani managing this. I think however that it is also important people understand why RMW and other TWs are not challenged in the ladies. We’re afraid to do it basically, silence is not consent.

I don"t think it was a good idea to make the comment about RMW's size in a loo encounter, but that's my only suggestion. I get why its an important point but I think normie listeners wouldn't react well to that.

RMW looks exactly like the sex RMW is and has a very intimidating and challenging presence. Helen made the very reasonable point that very, very, few women would feel brave enough or comfortable enough to challenge RMW and RMW knows this.

I thought Nuala was much more hostile to Helen than Robin. But then Helen is less intimidating, being female, a point she firmly made.

This idea that women will object if there's a man they're frightened of in the toilets and changing rooms needs to be squashed.

How many women are openly criticising the Afghan government? None, they're just disappeared and this is why very few women 'object' they know they'll be treated like Karen, Sandie, and all the other women abused as a result of speaking up for their rights. Or quietly sacked for a trumped up reason.

I'm all in for more discussion of safeguarding and why little boys go into toilets with their mothers though. Bring it on, I don't think they've thought that one through.

Perhaps all the adult males who are ignoring women saying 'no' will start identifying as trans age. That will end well for them, I'm sure. (some of course already do, with one notable example in Canada). I can't imagine there will be many female takers to be their 'accompanying adult' and wipe their bums for them though, despite handmaiden protestations that they think all this is fine. Because of course this is why boys are allowed in the women's toilets, so their mothers can help them use the toilet, as well as concerns about their safety around adult males.

Helen was brilliant. Her ability to stay calm in the face of untrammelled idiocy is an impressive superpower.

The only question I think she could have dealt with better was the one about children at the end. However, I hope she'll find some decent safeguarding lawyers to talk about why we treat children differently based on age (duh) and be better prepared next time. Introducing some information about laws around safeguarding children and how these laws may in fact take precedence over the equality act and adults' wants and desires is quite important at this point. So glad Robin introduced this issue!

Oooh YES! I vote for this. Can we send a Mumsnet petition to the BBC?

Yes, I can imagine following tribunal tweets and some poor barrister has to put this argument for their client.

If you can't access BBC iPlayer, Sex Matters has a YouTube channel, and I think the interview will go on there at some point today.

It's because they acted as an intervener in the Supreme court hearing. I hope they get a grilling.

Also - thinking about it, all interviews except Robin are with groups who acted as interveners in the FWS case (Sex Matters, Amnesty and LGB Alliance). So why include RMW? As far as I know he wasn't involved at all so is literally a talking head in this.

[email protected]

A PP pointed out the auto reply says they may read out your feedback with your name, so make clear in your email if you don't want them to do that

I’ve just gone to Sounds to download it, (five to 12), it is greyed out! The two following programmes are available to download. WTF? Are they busy editing it?