Misogyny seems to have changed, and not for the better

[PopstarPoppy]

When I was young (last century!), casual sexism was the norm, as were things like wolf-whistling, cars hooting at women/girls in skimpy outfits and men copping a feel in bars and clubs. None of it particularly bothered me, although I can understand why it bothered others, and I don’t believe it was right. But it seems that as attitudes that were almost unconscious have been stamped out, a much more sinister, deliberate form of misogyny has taken hold. I don’t know whether the two are related, because the latter is tangled up with gender identity politics, in particular the trans debate.

In the past, as glass ceilings were broken and women branched out into careers that were previously the preserve of men, I thought the years ahead would be better ones for women. Instead, it seems that the harder women have fought to be heard and treated fairly, the more they have been bullied and undermined, by companies, by the public sector, by media personalities – and even by a subset of (mostly young) biological women.

This has been underlined by the responses of so many to the recent SC ruling – with companies and public bodies finding every way to delay obeying the law and falling over themselves to publicise their support for those who have intimidated women. And the fact that, even now, women are repeatedly told to ‘be kind’ and asked ‘how we think transwomen feel’ about issues that have a huge impact on so many biological women makes it seem as nothing has really changed since the year dot. Women are still seen as ‘lesser’. And worst of all, fewer people now seem to view that as a problem.

I think you are right. It’s been troubling me (also young last century) and I am struggling to articulate fully now it manifests itself and why it is so pernicious. Superficially, young girls have more opportunities and power than we did when I was a teen. And increasingly high proportions of top jobs are being held by women. And yet I agree with you that this is not how it feels.

Wholly agree.

It's hard to count job benefits etc as positives when at the same time it has become not only normal but apparently 'righteous' to demand for example that a nurse submit against her will to a man attending her gynecological operation where he will be given full view of her vagina, under threat of her being refused her surgery if she refuses.

Women's rights to privacy, dignity, to not be involved as props in men's sexual experiences, their very consent over their bodies being used by men in this way, is regarded as not only worthless but a sin for a woman to notice or protest.

There is absolute derision for women in society. By those who would tell you they are progressive and probably try to insist they were 'feminist'.

My experience of that casual sexism was that it was negative from some men, but there were related positive concepts like chivalry and some men went out of their way to look after women.

Personally I preferred the casual sexism to the quietly seething anger and resentment that seems to have replaced it.

Not sure what the younger generation are like though. It’s changed in my lifetime, but even more so since the 50s when my mum grew up. Casual groping in the office wasn’t unusual then.

It's definitely morphed from being overt to resentment. As if they've had their toys taken away and are looking to punish women for that. A total failure to take responsibility for, and acknowledge how problemtic their behaviour is. They don't accept that women should have equity and equality. That struggle is far from over.

It’s the shift from a group who were utterly confident in their superior status with no doubt that the law/establishment would back them up to now. Now men know they can’t assume they will be prioritised, believed, and supported to treat women as inferior.

And they hate us for it.

I wonder if it will eventually improve their social communication and negotiation skills. Perhaps it already is, they seem to be coming up with all manner of new ways to put down uppity women now they can’t use all their old tricks.

I agree, I think there were about 10 years where things were getting quite good for women (2005-2015 ish), I naively thought things would carry on improving but alas we are probably in a worse place now than we were when I started going to clubs etc around 1998

I read Hags by Victoria Smith recently. It's very good on the generational divide between women (and men hate towards women in general)

I don't think it is personal so much as cultural. That so many young women are often the loudest and most outspoken on 'trans rights' and totally disregard or dismiss that women themselves may be negatively effected, is testament to that.

My take on it is that the idea of, and the striving for 'equality' has led to an idea that there are no diffferences between males and females, men and women. Yet these same young women still loudly proclaim about continuing, and even escalating, violence against women and girls;

.....and Inclusion and equality policies have led to women being prioritised and/or centred over men when it comes to job opportunities etc And yes, this has led to resentment. Men and males are often portrayed only in negatvive terms, as being problematical or 'toxic' etc

Young women are in a double bind: on one hand they think of themselves as equal ( the same) as men and yet simultaneously recognising that there are certain traits which are characteristic or more commonly found in one sex or the other. Furthermore, they are supposed to think that being sexually liberated means adopting typically male patterns of sexual behaviour...and not being "prissy" or repressed about undressing or being naked in front of strange/unknown men etc

Yes there is indeed a lot of sexist today and it's everywhere. I've noticed it in places where for some strange reason nobody pays attention to or brushes it off and makes me feel like the crazy one and I'm frustrated and exhausted of all this sh*t. Like take sex for instance. Why is it that we get more examples from TV where a man pins a woman against the wall and not the other way around? As if that's the normal or default. And every time people use language to describe things they make it seem like the feminine is a variation form the male making male seem like the norm when it's not because there is no norm. When talking about the 'main act' of sex people always say he penetrates her. How come I never hear people say she engulfs him or traps him? why is the emphasis always on the man and his part? it's always worded as a way to make it seem like the guy is doing the work and the girl is passive. I think it's really unfair also how we always get say in animation or anime, we get the girl blushing more than the guy or many times the guy doesn't even blush at all. In many fan art, I've noticed him taking up more space than her and it's okay? How do we not notice the repeated bias of blushing and the space difference and we're supposed to accept and go along with the idea of that being the 'normal' way girls and guys act? That's not only inaccurate but also unfair and it's ignoring the couples where the guy tends to blush more and the girl doesn't show her emotions outwardly. And it's so frustrating because nowadays, term like 'man', 'guy', 'bro', 'dude'. etc have become 'general terms' to the point that it's now the plural default for some reason oh but if it were reversed oh my God forbid we ever call males girls within a mixed group. Why do the males presence matter more than the females? and why are females being linguistically erased all the time? Why don't we get enough female representation when it comes to accomplishments? like in educational systems it's almost always men who accomplished great feats in history and women are treated even if subtly as those 'rare exceptions'. Women's abilities are also not mentioned as much. Why do people always point out guys being stronger or better at physical tasks yet people can't point out when women excel at physical tasks such as with flexibility, agility, endurance, etc. Why can't we ever acknowledge women's natural abilities without making them seem like a subcategory/exception or like a second man? WOMEN ARE WOMEN, not men. We're all humans yes, but we have to recognize and teach more about our differences. And I feel like what makes women powerful, incredible and great aren't talked of as much. So no wonder a lot of women struggle with self esteem and confidence, and bad self image all because of society and media not showing women's side of human nature. Like what makes a woman different from a man isn't just her being able to have children. It's many more things but people don't seem to understand that. What's even more infuriating is that women are human being who have ego as well yet for some reason people always tend to pay more attention to men's ego. Why is it that I always find the male character who started out sexist but went through a change yet he had 'character development' yet there isn't enough representation for say women who might feel the same about men. There are a few instances but they're usually related to their own history; e.g. having toxic men influence their views on all men. Yet can't it be simply that a female character feels hatred towards males and has the same kind of development? Kingdom? Never 'Queendom?' Viking? never 'Viqueens?' It's like society doesn't know how to honor women's qualities and abilities that make them different form men while treating them as humans as well. They make such a big deal about 'how to treat them well' and society's definition of that is apparently treating them exactly as guys? no. Not all girls wanna be part of 'the guys' the prob is that society thinks being 'one of the guys' is the default and 'one of the girls' is the variation. And there's many more examples like the "may you kiss the bride" instead of "may you kiss each other". Women leading in dance and sex (not just a variation or 'switch'/'break' from the 'norm'.) It should be normalized more. And there should definitely be more female leaders, and more couples should adopt female's last names after getting married. If we truly want to live in an equal world, we shouldn't be doing these things and expressing ourselves and showing things in such a biased form. Give equity where it's needed and equality where it's needed. I don't understand what's so hard about this.

I agree. Like now that women want equality it's apparently 'revenge' even if they do deserve it for being such well, can't say the word I was gonna say here but yeah they're total hypocrites. That's why I passionately hate sexism and anti-feminism. It's like "oh yeah let's pretend everything thing in history that ever happened to women didn't actually happen and your sharp words of the truth about how the world is sexist somehow hurts their ego personally. I'm tired of women having to act 'nice' and 'compassionate' just to not hurt men's feelings. Like enough about men. When will they recognize that women can express that anger and their wanting and feeling of revenge is normal because of all that women have been through. Their freaking human beings for crying out loud. Not cardboards. One thing is expressing anger to the point of feeling that males should get a taste of their own medicine and another thing is actually acting on the revenge. Yet sharp or brutally honest words form women can't be taken as her way of expressing and letting out. of grievance and rebelling against the ways society has chained them for a long time. Just because things have gotten 'better', does not mean they're 100% fixed. And people need to understand that things were never meant to be this way in the first place. their is no male-default as 'normal' that's just the 'normal' society has been accustomed to and will proceed to be accustomed if no one calls out the injustices. It's like when you see a villain form a movie getting the payback they deserve for acting like cr*p. and everyone feels satisfied. You won't see anyone saying "Oh yeah they acted like a total abusive and heartless monster. They shouldn't be punished for it tho." So why on earth is it so wrong for women to even just word 'revengeful' phrases. They're not even doing anything to them yet men are being such hypocritical crybabies about it. They should just shut up and suck it up cuz women have endured a lot for so long and if they can't handle a little sting that makes them uncomfortable, they're stupid *ssholes that only think about themselves. And just to be clear, I'm not talking about all men, rather the men who re part of the sexist and anti-feminist groups. Pardon my language but this was an attempt to express the anger I and many other people have about the topic and rightfully so.

Some positives: my son (aged eight) loves sport and watches it all the time. There are no differences in his love of women’s sports and men’s – he watches them both avidly, whether it’s the England cricket team, the women’s hundred or the Lionesses. Girls feature on several of his sports teams too. I have talked to him a little about trans ideology, which he can see is insane (long may that continue). My friends’ sons are similar. I like to think the generation after this will be less confused about women’s roles, will be able to see we are different but equally valuable. It saddens me that those in their late teens and 20s seem to be so confused/ hostile about this message.

I’m not really sure about your point here. Men and women do have different kinds of fantasies (not necessarily ones that are healthy in real life). It seems ridiculous to portray a woman doing very male things (likes pin a man against a wall - how would she have the strength to, and why would she have such male behaviour in the first place?) I don’t think the answer is “ make women like men, including their very worst male behaviours”.

I’ve never seen equality as being exactly the same. It should be both sexes should be equally respected for the good of society.

The 'king' in Viking doesn't mean male monarch any more than it does in baking. Sorry for petty pedantry.

I'm not sure whether things are worse or better in terms of sexism these days. I think misogyny is like the Hydra (which doesn't mean we should stop fighting). Ultimately men are bigger and stronger than us and I think that is probably at the root of their sense of superiority and dominance over women and it will never be fully eradicated.

Also yes, I'd rather a 'benign' sexist who called me love and thought I was a bit dim but who also had a sense of being a gentleman than an incel seething with hatred and fantasies of sexual violence, but wasn't the benign sexism only the tip of the ice berg? We should be careful of rose tinted glasses. But I agree the darker sides of misogyny are more overt these days, which I think is possibly just the internet allowing us to see things that would have been better hidden in the past.

I don't agree with everything - maybe even lots of things! - DashyZap says but I think she is expressing the anger and frustration that many of us feel about the 'one step forward many steps back' experience, and she is doing that powerfully.

I stopped believing in progress several years ago. It is not a smooth forward motion towards equality and fairness for women, it is a constant struggle to achieve a bit, then see it taken away [even the very word 'woman', FFS!], then struggle all over again to regain ground.

The fact that we live with men, whether literally if you're in a heterosexual relationship, or just because they are the other half of the human race, means that we can't dodge whatever the current male zeitgeist is.

Currently there are several strands of misogyny, from the trans appropriation of women's identity to Andrew Tate to the kind of overt sexism which would have been shockingly unacceptable in the 1980s.

This constant struggle is tiring and it could be depressing, which is where supporting each other and managing to have a laugh about it is so important - JKR being a shining example of both, she is as funny as she is strongly supportive of women's rights.

And then there's MN, and this board, where there is discussion and debate and sometimes laughs and sometimes just a complete letting go of all you anger and frustration at the misogyny and sexism that just won't go away.

That's how I read DashyZap's posts, and I understand the anger and frustration.

It’s a shame. I’m saddened that manners which recognised men’s strength advantage have died out. The book which I can’t remember the name of (😖 😶‍🌫️) showing the world’s design based on men makes it clear that it’s harder and more demanding for women to move through the world than men.

It’s a shame holding doors and offering seats is a thing of the past, in my increasingly lonely opinion.

But I’m barely holding up under fibro and face a heavy sprung door with dread so I’m biased!

If you look for misogyny everywhere, you'll surely find it.

The reality is 0.5% of the population's loo preferences has no meaningful impact on most women's lives so its unlikely to be something the masses make a big deal about even if they agree in principle.

But you are onto something regarding "a much more sinister, deliberate form of misogyny has taking hold". It's called 'ignoring substantially more impactful women's issues like domestic & sexual violence in favour of loo policing'.

Women are able to focus on more than one issue at a time. No one is ignoring domestic and sexual violence. Your accusations are so transparent.

Desperate smearing

Men being able to access female only spaces effects all female people; for the reason that the established protections for their dignity and privacy are no longer seen as mattering. This means that a woman could come across a male person at any time when she is in a public space that has been set aside to protect the dignity and safety of her sex.. This is wholly unacceptable and wholly unnecessary. Women and girls matter.

People who believe that female people have dignity ansd integrity and that their needs matter would not inpose upon them in this way.

What is especially disturbing is the idea that women's boundaries are unimportant and therefore merit no social protection. That male desires outweigh the dignity and integrity of female people when in public spaces. It is not difficult to see how this is a step closer to the concept of 'purdah': that women's needs are not as important, and that female people have no place in public life - in which the needs and drives of men dominate.

Um, men frequenting the ladies is a manufactured moral panic because if it were an issue it wouldn't have 'suddenly' become one. Th Equality Act has been effective for 15 years with nary a whisper about men in loos until it became very recently fashionable to pretend so.

What do you mean by a'moral panic'?

You mean bringing up the notion that women and girls should receive social protections that cater to the dignity and the privacy of their sex, permitting them to participate and engage fully in public life?

Do you not consider that female people may have reasons for the privacy of their sex. Why do you think single sex spaces and facilities and categories were first introduced? Prudery?

"Ummm" it's not the Equality Act that has kept men out of women's toilets. It's the social contract, which most men still abide by. The concerted effort to get rid of the social contract is what women are fighting against. Sorry you can't grasp that.

Men invading women's spaces is as old as the hills. Men trampling on female boundaries for their own gratification. All women and girls have experienced male intrusions and the assertion of their paraphilias.....from a very young age.

It used to be suggested that women keep off the streets if they wanted to feel safe....that their needs and dignity were secondary to male freedoms. In fact, this still happens in certain parts of the world.

Now we have protections that are established by legal rulings and acts. This is progress.

Technology of the past 20 years has definitely opened up vast spaces for misogyny by allowing a small proportion of male voices to express their deep hatred and resentment of women and girls.

Many forms of technology are based on both casual and overt sexism. Look at gaming. AI is designed by mostly young sexist males. Social media provides multiple platforms to amplify the worst and to seep through society, not just mainstream misogyny but niche fetishes becoming accepted.

I agree it’s important not to have rose tinted glasses but it does feel to me that we’ve gone backwards. Certainly in terms of gender stereotypes. We’ve gone from Prince, Bowie, Lennox etc to the likes of Kardashian’s and Andrew Tate. Whilst sex has always sold, Tate can only have influence thanks to social media algorithms deliberately engineered to promote his voice.

It’s as if any small advance is strategically exploited by a small but significant percentage of males to twist it back to their advantage. I think the trans agenda falls into this category.

Notice how it has taken root in any liberal, ‘progressive’ institution such as healthcare, education, the WHO, liberal countries, young people etc. Trans agenda has definitely spread thanks to social media and confused young people about their identity. I was talking to my DC about their friend - who has come out as trans because he doesn’t feel like a man - and said I felt social norms had gone backwards. Why couldn’t he feel like a man who liked to wear nail polish?

Generative AI is going to be just one more step along this road to male dominance. Once again driven by men and this time by gay men who have no use for women (other than gestational carriers).