Misogyny seems to have changed, and not for the better

[PopstarPoppy]

When I was young (last century!), casual sexism was the norm, as were things like wolf-whistling, cars hooting at women/girls in skimpy outfits and men copping a feel in bars and clubs. None of it particularly bothered me, although I can understand why it bothered others, and I don’t believe it was right. But it seems that as attitudes that were almost unconscious have been stamped out, a much more sinister, deliberate form of misogyny has taken hold. I don’t know whether the two are related, because the latter is tangled up with gender identity politics, in particular the trans debate.

In the past, as glass ceilings were broken and women branched out into careers that were previously the preserve of men, I thought the years ahead would be better ones for women. Instead, it seems that the harder women have fought to be heard and treated fairly, the more they have been bullied and undermined, by companies, by the public sector, by media personalities – and even by a subset of (mostly young) biological women.

This has been underlined by the responses of so many to the recent SC ruling – with companies and public bodies finding every way to delay obeying the law and falling over themselves to publicise their support for those who have intimidated women. And the fact that, even now, women are repeatedly told to ‘be kind’ and asked ‘how we think transwomen feel’ about issues that have a huge impact on so many biological women makes it seem as nothing has really changed since the year dot. Women are still seen as ‘lesser’. And worst of all, fewer people now seem to view that as a problem.

There's a big difference between mixed sex cubicles and single use toilets

Single occupancy facilities with integral basin are not an issue, and that is what tends to exist in most small cafes and venues. Larger venues already tend to have two facilities....one for male and one for female, and one accessible facility.

You really haven't got it have you? Try re-reading the multiple threads on here for starters instead of clomping in with your size 13 hobnail boots.

It not about the policing... decent men already know to stay out of women's spaces. It's about keeping out those men who refuse to accept women need, want and deserve those single sex spaces. Why do you think we don't?

The protection of the dignity and integrity of women and girls is the central point of issue. Everything else proceeds from there.

Do you mean "Invisible Women" by Caroline Criado-Perez?

Interesting read. Makes you notice things you just accepted before...and gives you more things to get angry about!

Of course this thread was going to be like catnip to that poster.

I agree.

I feel misogny is more hidden now, for example all these strong female role models you see in films and on TV that seem compulsory now are still not wearing the same as men. Its "I might kick ass but my eye brows look good and my tits are on display"
And don't get me started on Leftie Woke Bros

The erosion of women's boundaries seems casual and insidious. I was out shopping a few months ago and went into H&M. I picked out a few items and went to the changing rooms to try them on. They'd remodeled the shop since I was in last, and the changing rooms are now almost open plan to the shop. There was a big open area with cubicles and curtains, and sofas and chairs in the middle. The sofas were full of men (presumably) waiting for their wives / girlfriends to try things on. A couple of years ago, any man in the women's changing room would have been told to eff off. Now they're given a bloody sofa! It's minor in the grand scheme of things but absolutely the thin end of the wedge. It made me uncomfortable that it was normalising male presence for the young girls in the queue. A steady and continual erosion of boundaries that is being forced on us without us being able to say anything.

I can well imagine that some may say that 'equality' means exactly that. That the boundaries and borders ( and even characteristics) that differentiate and distinguish the two sexes are removed.Some will argue that not only is this an inevitable outcome of equality feminism, but even a desirable one.

There's this thing called 'reality'.

🤣🤣🤣

Nice one

"It's called 'ignoring substantially more impactful women's issues like domestic & sexual violence in favour of loo policing'" 😂😂

Only a man - and a transactivist man at that - would reduce the fascinating discussion about misogyny and societal change that women were having down to a man's desire to access women using the toilet.

@zazazaaar it’s become the overwhelming issue despite there being many others because if you lose the language and stop collecting meaningful data there’s no way to address the others.

Rapes in hospitals? Not happening, not even the one that happened last week, she was mistaken, there were no men on that ward.

Smear tests? Yes, on the decline. Odd really. Fewer people with cervices are coming in for testing than before.

etc etc.

I don’t know why Howse bothers. No one is persuaded by the bollocks.

Thank you @Greyskybluesky, my brain was not finding the information this morning!
@DrBlackbird I dated a man who did that, such a sweetheart.

Do doors need to be as heavily sprung as they are, does anyone know?

Yes of course. We all know this, but this board used to be about other issues.And now we have let this issue, dominate everything. The hours spent analysing the smallest detail of this issue, as opposed to other, much more day to day issues of sexism and misogyny it aĺl its ugly forms get little time comparatively.
In my life I have been raped, lost a friend to domestic violence, been subjected to domestic violence with three partners, my granny was murdered and raped (before I was born but it definitely fucked up my upbringing), been subjected to vile abusue in the street, at work and lots more mundane exist annoyances such as worse pay, arsenal pinches, being ignored in meetings and by mechanics and builders. I have also had to share a psychiatric ward when I was ill with a man who was pretending to be a woman and a toilet a couple of times with a so called woman with a dick.

Yes, it's an issue, but it's not the biggest issue.

Really sorry @zazazaaar to hear of your abuse and grief

If this board does not provide you with what you need, then https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/feminism would be the better fit. MN split FWR into two for this very reason. Feminism Chat is the board to talk about any other feminist issue and would the one to post about cat calling and lower pay.

This board Feminism: Sex and Gender discussions does what it says on the tin. It discusses how gender - including transgenderism of gender ideology - is impacting women and girls. It can be one of your hidden threads if you prefer.

For many of us post in here, we’ve had direct experience that have affected us or our families. It may be our biggest issue. Allow us to talk about it.

The board was split some time ago, at the request of people for who it was not such an important issue, to accommodate those who felt that it was of fundamental importance. So now there are two boards...this one for issues relating to 'sex and gender' ( gender ideology etc) specifically, and another for more general 'feminist chat' and the issues such as you talk about.

I think sometimes the word misogyny isn't helpful and it can obscure what is really going on with people's behaviour.

In the recent past and even today, for example, I think it's generally been quite wrong to label more conservative men's views about women being differernt, misogyny, but it has often happened. I worked for a decade or so in a male dominated, conservative dominated, environment, full of fairly manly men. (Quite a lot of the women were somewhat on the manly side too.) They were no more likely to hate women than any other group of men, however many did not see men and women as interchangeable, they may have felt for example women were more likely to be connected to caring roles, they knew darn well they were not physically the same. In settings where there were not separate facilities for women, which was fairly common, they had to make a point of creating space for the women to have some degree of privacy, which they did almost without really thinking about it.

Make no mistake, a lot of these guys could speak in a very broad way about women, or be crude, a lot were young and at an age when getting laid was a big focus. But hating women - not more than "liberal" men, imo. Maybe even less.

I also think a lot of difficulties between the sexes arise from the fact that most people at least at some point, have romantic relationships with the opposite sex. This kind of intimacy creates rather specific points of friction.

And then, I think there are a large group of people who are simply selfish, and dislike and dehumanize almost anyone, on any basis at all. They will pedal misogyny, but the real issue is they are fundamentally shitty narcissists.

I do think however we are now in a era of increasing identarianism which leads to sexism, racism, and more. We are in an era when technology, which seemed for decades to be mainly freeing women, is now looking rather more dystopian and is showing that it can victimise women just as easily. We are in an era when political discourse is degrading and the domination of interest groups (including often women's interest groups, I'm afraid) are trying to grab for what they can rather than look at principles and the common good. And we are in an era where literacy and simple education on history, politics, how to think and debate, are all very quickly degrading and even being lost, including the so-called "educated" classes. WHich means there is a large group of people, often with university degrees!, who are ill-educated and even rather stupid. And they are also very vocal because they think that is how they can be good people.

I suspect that a big part of these redesigns is because of problems in the change areas due to them being hidden. Some of which will be about nefarious men, but also, at least where I live (North America), drug using has become such a significant issue that more and more places are having to manage closed spaces differently.

They seem to be going with either making them very open, or locking them and you need to get a key.

Oh for heaven’s sake, enough with the bloody toilets!!! It’s not just about the toilets! It’s also about the rape crisis centres, the hospital wards and the prisons! All places where women (often very vulnerable women) are particularly vulnerable! Those women deserve to have their fears and trauma recognised, not overriden by the wants of biological men!

Why do so many people believe the feelings of transwomen are more important than those of biological women?

That’s one of the easier questions - because
they know transwomen are men.

Agree @TempestTost although I use misogyny as a term, it’s more than that. It is about power and domination and the desire for more and more money fuelled by individualism and division.

Increasing the further we get away from WWII where a sense of connectedness and collectivism was solidified (all in it together) were embodied in the institutions created at the Bretton Woods conference.

I thought of this watching a Netflix detective series the other night.
The female character was able to beat up 3 larger males and just seemed like a male character wearing a female skin suit. It wasn’t grounded in reality and the pendulum has swung to portray female characters based on looks not biology.

I think it can probably be summed up as if we know our place, stay in our lanes and don't inconvenience men too much, they are nicer to us.

ignoring substantially more impactful women's issues like domestic & sexual violence

It's not GCs who tried to coerce Edinburgh Women's Aid into granting men access to female-only spaces and support groups. That would be TRAs. When we found out EWA were being targeted, we held a funding drive for them.

Defending single-sex spaces is not, and never has been, just about loos. Stop lying about GCs.