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[DuesToTheDirt]

Prompted by the Dundee uni thread, but also in relation to statements by many other organisations....

Where the fuck were they (excuse my French) when women were shoved to one side to make way for men? Were they apologising to women? Were they issuing statements of support? Were they saying they would do all they could to meet our needs?

Bloody hell it makes me angry.

Not sure, but it might be this one…

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5330379-dundee-uni-whistleblower?utm_campaign=thread&utm_medium=share

Gosh, if only someone had thought of third spaces and open categories sooner. We could have avoided all this unpleasantness.

Yeah, ‘As I two year old I would only wear dresses and by 14 I was wearing my sister’s underwear in secret’. We’ve all heard that. And we all know the word for it, but don’t want our posts reported.

“I’m guessing none of your properly know a genuine trans person, someone who at age 2 refused to put on dresses”

Funnily enough, I do know a young woman who did exactly that. I made it very clear to her that she had the right to do that and protected her from anyone who tried to argue otherwise.

I let her know that if she was bullied, it was the bullies who were assholes and not her.

From the age when the discussion took an occasional turn towards future partners, I made it clear to all my children that whatever sex the partner they chose was, that was entirely fine with me.

She is now a butch lesbian with no concerns about who she is. Homophobia in homes and in society has a lot to answer for when young people learn to hate themselves so much that they feel that surgery and medication might make them feel better.

I feel it is a lie that is going to have horrific long-term effects on the poor young women (and going gay men) who buy into it. Much better if they could have learned to love themselves as they were.

Not sure why you're acting like this is a novel idea. Women have been proposing third spaces and mixed sex sports for years (in addition to single sex provisions obviously). It has been loudly shouted down as a transohobic and bigoted idea.

And on the thread topic. I'd note that the general sentiment towards women when TRAs were on the up was "enjoy your erasure". Has that been said to transwomen anywhere? No? Hmm be kind really does only extend one way.

Lots of us know people who have adopted trans identities: either because their own children have done so; or their husband has done so after years of cross dressing (as you mention); because they have friends or other family members who are are trans identified; because they work in teaching or the mental halth professions etc...or simply because they frequently see and come across cross dressing men in their local neighbourhoods frequently. And sometimes young women with beards.

There is no such thing as 'trans' other than it being a way to frame one's cross dressing proclivities, or to frame a discomfort with the expectations of one's sex; for some to frame dysphoria. We are all human beings, either male or female, struggling with the conditions of our lives.

Since the madness really took hold, it has always been obvious that third spaces and categories were the solution...and that is the most likely outcome now

I’m guessing you’re new to this board, @minnienono, else you’d know that we are very aware of all of that and have been discussing and advocating exactly the sorts of things you suggest for many years.

Kindly, many of us grew up as the girls who didn’t want to wear dresses - thankfully we weren’t brainwashed with the nonsensical idea that a girl not wanting to wear a dress is somehow in the wrong-sex body. She’s just a girl who’s not keen on dresses!

The other thing is no one asked women. Hey do you mind if we put men in your changing rooms, prison cells and sports?

It is frustrating to see the responses but I’m so relieved it went the way it did.

@minnienono Not wanting to put on a dress at 2 has nothing to do with identifying as 'trans'.

Many children don't like the impracticality of a dress, others don't like the sensory aspects of it, still others don't like the set of cultural expectations that comes with gendered clothing.

The problem is cultural gendered expectations.
The problem is lack of acceptance of gay relationships within many cultural groups.
The problem is lack of mental health services for traumatised young people or those with emerging mental health issues.
The problem is lack of understanding around neurodivergence and their often rigid thinking patterns/ attempts to belong and fit in in a world that rejects them
The problem is men expecting the world to revolve around them and their desires and co-opting women and children to achieve that.

I haven't met anyone 'trans' because you cannot change sex, it is not humanly possible. I have met young people and adults that identify that way, but it is clear that they have one of the issue I describe above.

I’m so glad I found this thread. My workplace EDI’s group put out the most ridiculously biased statement on the ruling last week. And while I’m pretty sure some of my colleagues are gender critical I’m not 100% sure so can’t vent to them!

Paragraph after paragraph of how appalled the EDI group was with the ruling, the awful effects it will have on trans people, how we wholeheartedly support the trans community etc. Followed by a long list of links for anyone ‘affected’ about the ruling. Including the usual suspects like Mermaids and Gendered Intelligence.

There wasn’t a hint of acknowledgment that not everyone will disagree with the ruling, or even any mention of women. It’s crazy how a group purporting to represent EDI perspectives has such a massive blind spot, and such a laser focus on all things trans that any other views, or the bigger picture, is completely lost.

The sensible and actually Kind response to a female child who refuses to put on a dress, or a male child who wants to wear a dress, is to say "That's absolutely fine, because clothes are clothes, and you can have whatever interests and hobbies you like."

Exclaiming "By golly, if you don't adhere to current sexist stereotypes in dress and behaviour, you are a problem and your sex must be wrong, let's subject you to a lifetime of medicalisation!" is Not Kind, however much it makes you enjoy polishing your Righteous halo.

And yet the common refrain on Reddit is that we want to eradicate them from the world (not just from being able to function in a normal life).

Such DARVO, very narcissism.

Wonder if any women could bring claims of constructive dismissal over these organisational statements.

Every trans person is genuine, didn't you know? From people with severe body dysmorphia to those who have a passion for malaga airport, or fancy a stretch in a women's prison.
All👏genuine 👏trans 👏

Yeah, my public sector organisation is going down this route. There was a question in our staff talk about the ruling and the response was that we want to stay inclusive and are not making any policy changes yet. Nothing at all to indicate anyone in the organisation would see the ruling as positive, and no mention of women. Very much gave the impression the organisation is looking for ways to not follow the guidance.

I'm livid too. So much so that I've just submitted a carefully worded rant to the staff survey. I've been too scared before now, because while they say it's anonymous I don't actually believe them, especially if they deem the response 'transphobic' but I'm so bloody angry to have had yet another survey asking me what my gender identity is without an option to say none/it's a load of bollocks. We've also had a 'statement of support' and I was invited to a meeting to talk about our reactions to the judgement, as a part of a meeting about something completely unrelated! I really really don't think they wanted my reaction! Perhaps I should have joined with a party hat on and holding champagne?!?

I've pointed out they've been illegally discriminating against women for years, they've not acknowledged, ever, that some of their staff will have a legally protected gender critical belief, all comms are on the assumption we are all TWAW, and there isn't even a Women's network, despite there being a network for pretty much everything else and much waffle about always being inclusive to everyone. Utter bullshit.

We even had an accountant designing the new toilets purely because he is a transwoman. It's utter madness.

I feel the same.

"I’m guessing none of your properly know a genuine trans person, someone who at age 2 refused to put on dresses? F-M in this case obviously."

@minnienono - @user1471538275 has answered this perfectly, as has @Kucinghitam -

"The sensible and actually Kind response to a female child who refuses to put on a dress, or a male child who wants to wear a dress, is to say "That's absolutely fine, because clothes are clothes, and you can have whatever interests and hobbies you like."

Exclaiming "By golly, if you don't adhere to current sexist stereotypes in dress and behaviour, you are a problem and your sex must be wrong, let's subject you to a lifetime of medicalisation!" is Not Kind, however much it makes you enjoy polishing your Righteous halo."

I cannot understand why, after decades of women fighting against toxic stereotypes - girls MUST wear skirts, make up, long hair, be caring, like gentle activities etc, and only boys can like short hair, trousers, rough sports etc - and finally getting to the point where it is entirely unremarkable for a woman to have short hair, wear no make up, live in trousers and play rugby, only to have the Trans Rights Movement send us hurtling back to the time of the toxic stereotypes! And then to portray this as a progressive move!

@minnienono Since when is a two year-old girl refusing to wear a dress ‘trans’? I’m hoping guessing you don’t have children.

Yes, I had a little girl who didn’t wear dresses and who wanted (and got) a short haircut. I also had a little boy who liked wearing Disney Princess dresses and shoes.

Fast forward 15 years, neither of them are ‘trans’. One of them is gay, the other is straight. They’re just normal young people who were allowed to try on different clothes and roles when they were little, without anyone giving them the idea they were ‘born in the wrong body’.

@minnienono thank you for your viewpoint on this thread. As others have said, dresses are not inherently for one sex or the other, I did not like them as a girl. Both my DD wear the version of their school uniform that the boys usually wear because they find it more comfortable. When she was a toddler I would give my first DD choices as to what to wear, I remember her once throwing a pair of socks that happened to be pink and choosing a pair with a truck on them. None of this means she wants to be a boy because girls like shorts, trousers, pockets and trucks, just as some boys like pink, bows and unicorns. I grew up amongst an Artsy set in the 80s and it strikes me as homophobic to say that girls who don't like dresses are trans, we women can be hetero butch looking, lesbian butch, this is all womanhood. Just as manhood can involve eyeliner and nail polish (it certainly did in music in the 80s!). And women have long advocated for all these third spaces and inclusivity, in the main it isn't men who have been doing that at all.

The source of women's oppression lies in our biology and so the legal rights we fight for must be absolutely rooted in this biology. It is a legal tautology.

I am interested to know your thoughts on this counter argument (if you have the energy to share) x

You have put that so well I think.

Apparently empathy is revolutionary 🤭🤭 this from a poster who posted about their fantasy conversation with a mute accessory human, sorry, woman where they called the accessory human a stupid fuck and hoped they died for being uppity and not agreeing gender is "bimordal" 😭🤣

I don't get why they're so desperate to feel like everyone hates them.

Oops are we not allowed to share funny Reddit screenshots.