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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

JK Rowlings latest tweet. Just wow!

1000 replies

Imnobody4 · 03/05/2025 20:36

I've copied it in full.
https://x.com/jk_rowling/status/1918747065460420745?t=bPXQ2pY9VAwPPqFR26_vvw&s=19

In light of recent open letters from academia and the arts criticising the UK's Supreme Court ruling on sex-based rights, it's possibly worth remembering that nobody sane believes, or has ever believed, that humans can change sex, or that binary sex isn't a material fact. These letters do nothing but remind us of what we know only too well: that pretending to believe these things has become an elitist badge of virtue.

I often wonder whether the signatories of such letters have to quieten their consciences before publicly boosting a movement intent on removing women's and girls' rights, which bullies gay people who admit openly they don't want opposite sex partners, and campaigns for the continued sterilisation of vulnerable and troubled kids. Do they feel any qualms at all while chanting the foundational lie of their religion: Trans Women are Women, Trans Men are Men?

I have no idea. All I know for sure is that it's a complete waste of time telling a gender activist that their favourite slogan is self-contradictory nonsense, because the lie is the whole point. They're not repeating it because it's true - they know full well it's not true - but because they believe they can make it true, sort of, if they force everyone else to agree. The foundational lie functions as both catechism and crucifix: the set form of words that obviates the tedious necessity of coming up with your own explanation of why you're one of the Godly, and an exorcist's weapon which will defeat demonic facts and reason, and promote the advance of righteous pseudoscience and sophistry.

Some argue that signatories of these sorts of letters are motivated by fear: fear for their careers, of course, but also fear of their co-religionists, who include angry, narcissistic men who threaten and sometimes enact violence on non-believers; back-stabbing colleagues ever ready to report wrongthink; the online shamers and doxxers and rape threateners, and, of course, the influential zealots in the upper echelons of liberal professions (though we can quibble whether they're actually liberal at all, given the draconian authoritarianism that seems to have engulfed so many). Gender ideology could give medieval Catholicism a run for its money when it comes to punishing heretics, so isn't it common sense to keep your head down and recite your Hail Mulvaneys?

But before we start feeling too sorry for any cowed and fearful TWAWites who're TERFy on the sly, let's not forget what a high proportion of them have willingly snatched up pitchforks and torches to join the inquisitional purges. Call me lacking in proper womanly sympathy, but I find the harm they've enabled and in some cases directly championed or funded - the hounding and shaming of vulnerable women, the forced loss of livelihoods, the unregulated medical experiment on minors - tends to dry up my tears at source.

History is littered with the debris of irrational and harmful belief systems that once seemed unassailable. As Orwell said, 'Some ideas are so stupid that only intellectuals believe them.' Gender ideology may have embedded itself deeply into our institutions, where it's been imposed, top-down, on the supposedly unenlightened, but it is not invulnerable.

Court losses are starting to stack up. The condescension, overreach, entitlement and aggression of gender activists is eroding public support daily. Women are fighting back and winning significant victories. Sporting bodies have miraculously awoken from their slumber and remembered that males tend to be larger, stronger and faster than females. Parts of the medical establishment are questioning cutting healthy breasts off teenaged girls is really the best way to fix their mental health problems.

One seemingly harmless little white lie - Trans Women are Women, Trans Men are Men - uttered in most cases without any real thought at all, and a few short years later, people who think of themselves as supremely virtuous are typing 'yes, rapists' pronouns are absolutely the hill I'll die on,' rubbing shoulders with those who call for women to be hanged and decapitated for wanting all-female rape crisis centres, and furiously denying clear and mounting evidence of the greatest medical scandal in a century.

I wonder if they ever ask themselves how they got here, and I wonder whether any of them will ever feel shame.

https://x.com/jk_rowling/status/1918747065460420745?s=19&t=bPXQ2pY9VAwPPqFR26_vvw

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36
Waitwhat23 · 04/05/2025 10:40

StuckUpPrincess · 04/05/2025 10:33

While a fully transitioned TW is obviously not a biological woman, I don't think she's the same as a regular man any more either.

A man who takes wrong sex hormones, has extreme cosmetic surgery and who dresses in the male gaze stereotype of how a woman dresses is just....

A man who takes wrong sex hormones, has extreme cosmetic surgery and who dresses in the male gaze stereotype of how a woman dresses.

There is no 'sex change'. There is no 'fully transitioned'. Sex is immutable.

StuckUpPrincess · 04/05/2025 10:40

Helleofabore · 04/05/2025 10:28

And how many businesses can have a huge line up of what are effectively all access rooms? Current rows of fully enclosed toilets are as narrow as the usual cubicles but now with a hand basin jammed in too.

You have shown on this thread that you really have not thought deeply about the consequences of allowing male people access to female spaces. Yet you were fucking quick to declare JK Rowling transphobic.

There wouldn't be a line-up, there would have to be fewer in smaller spaces, of course. My Waterstones cafe manages just fine with one enclosed loo.

There is not a perfect solution.

LadyBracknellsHandbagg · 04/05/2025 10:40

mumandgran24 · 04/05/2025 10:28

I saw an interview with a trans woman who had been post op for decades and interestingly she said that years ago whilst she would get the odd look most people would not say a word to her and she was just accepted and it was a kind of live and let live. BUT since the more milatant trans activists have been active she has had much more verbal attacks and nastiness and outright bigotry.

I love JKR and think she is putting up with a lot of nastiness and outright threats which is awful But there are also many gay activists who are also being attacked for agreeing there are only 2 biological sexes. I have heard some gay activists say they feel some elements of trans idiology would rather a lesbian be forced into becoming a trans man rather than accept same sexes can be attracted to each other.

The most awful things I have heard are young people who transitioned or partly transistioned only to realise what a mistake it was leaving them mutilated and devastated. Many talk of Drs when they mentioned body convidence issues immediately jumping to you must be trans and pushing down that route. Very little discussion of the long term medical effects of even an extremely sucessful transition. Many said they believe they had mental health issues or body dysmorphia rather than being trans but were given no other options but to be pushed down the trans route.

I think there should be more emphysis on mental health treatment and counselling to work out exactly what a persons issues are. I don't think you should have puberty blockers or hormones or non reversable operations for teenagers. If someone has been through counselling and still at an age where you are fully an adult so perhaps 24 or 25 and you are still adamant you are trans then yes let them transistion

‘If someone has been through counselling and still at an age where you are fully an adult so perhaps 24 or 25 and you are still adamant you are trans then yes let them transistion’

Would you say the same about someone with anorexia? If they are fully an adult we should let them starve themselves to death? These are both MH issues that need addressing accordingly, not with affirmative action.

Merrymouse · 04/05/2025 10:40

StuckUpPrincess · 04/05/2025 10:15

Oh, definitely not men who have self-ID'd without medication or surgery. Hell, no. They need to stay in the men's.

It doesn't really matter where anyone on this thread draws the line.

The ECHR has already ruled that rights can't be dependent on treatment that would cause sterilisation.

I agree, particularly after the Cass report.

Judashascomeintosomemoney · 04/05/2025 10:40

Ah I see - you were answering a question that said women could be Rabbis and you said not at your place. So what you meant was there is nothing stopping them but there aren’t any yet? Just clarifying…

Helleofabore · 04/05/2025 10:41

TimeForATerf · 04/05/2025 10:39

You mean you think that now, but at 23:56 yesterday you didn't.

Whenever I think the dissonance alarm must be horrendously loud, we see another form of self calming assurances.

RedToothBrush · 04/05/2025 10:42

StuckUpPrincess · 04/05/2025 02:30

I don't know what your last para means. Whoever says anything like that is just being an extremist. And yes, the trans activists are extremists, too. What they've said about women is utterly unacceptable - but then, I find both sides of this debate to be extremist and unreasonable, including both the TRAs and JK Rowling.

That's my point: In this debate, there are hardly any reasonable voices.

I'm yet to understand how recognising that everyone has a biological sex and can not change sex and that even who people think they are the opposite sex know this, (cos you literally can't be trans without acknowledging your own sex) is an extreme position.

It's the default - it's what everyone has thought for thousands of years.

Reality is not extremism.

Keeptoiletssafe · 04/05/2025 10:42

StuckUpPrincess · 04/05/2025 10:23

My experience of the Starbucks and Waterstone enclosed loos is that they're a lot bigger than cubicles.

I didn't realise there would be any issues with enclosed loos like you describe. I just want everyone to feel safe. If I was Queen for a Day, I would give women whatever toilets they wanted and make third spaces for TW. And if TW objected, then I would consider that an unreasonable position.

The problem with third spaces is that even the girls that wanted them, hate them.
This is a quote from a pupil whose school have a ‘third space’ gender neutral toilet on every floor (it’s an American article but it’s the design system the DfE have now on their latest spec) :
‘I consider everything in the third floor bathroom a biohazard. Almost every time I make the mistake of going in, I leave trying to purge my mind of the horrors I just witnessed. Whether it is people having sex, poop smeared on the walls, or the toilet being clogged with an entire roll of toilet paper, horrible things have happened in that bathroom.’

It’s the privacy that’s the problem. When you have complete privacy in a public space, it is a problem.

chattychatchatty · 04/05/2025 10:43

‘Hail Mulvaneys’ - she’s an absolute legend.

Every newspaper should report on this and publish it in full.

We really need some trans people to support the judgment publicly and acknowledge that, of course, single sex spaces with third spaces, and single sex sports etc is the best, fairest (and only legal) solution for everybody.

StuckUpPrincess · 04/05/2025 10:43

Waitwhat23 · 04/05/2025 10:40

A man who takes wrong sex hormones, has extreme cosmetic surgery and who dresses in the male gaze stereotype of how a woman dresses is just....

A man who takes wrong sex hormones, has extreme cosmetic surgery and who dresses in the male gaze stereotype of how a woman dresses.

There is no 'sex change'. There is no 'fully transitioned'. Sex is immutable.

I don't mean fully transitioned as in "now fully a woman." I mean fully transitioned in that they have done all the transitioning they can do.

I disagree that a fully transitioned TW is a regular man who has done certain things. But I respect that others have a different view.

Helleofabore · 04/05/2025 10:45

StuckUpPrincess · 04/05/2025 10:40

There wouldn't be a line-up, there would have to be fewer in smaller spaces, of course. My Waterstones cafe manages just fine with one enclosed loo.

There is not a perfect solution.

Sorry? I am confused.

You believe that people only go to the toilet in small businesses with one toilet and that is the norm?

Just because your local Waterstones cafe managed just fine with one enclosed loo, doesn't mean that my local M&S cafe does, nor the local pubs nor department stores or large shopping centres. Nor airports, hospitals and offices.

StuckUpPrincess · 04/05/2025 10:46

Keeptoiletssafe · 04/05/2025 10:42

The problem with third spaces is that even the girls that wanted them, hate them.
This is a quote from a pupil whose school have a ‘third space’ gender neutral toilet on every floor (it’s an American article but it’s the design system the DfE have now on their latest spec) :
‘I consider everything in the third floor bathroom a biohazard. Almost every time I make the mistake of going in, I leave trying to purge my mind of the horrors I just witnessed. Whether it is people having sex, poop smeared on the walls, or the toilet being clogged with an entire roll of toilet paper, horrible things have happened in that bathroom.’

It’s the privacy that’s the problem. When you have complete privacy in a public space, it is a problem.

Edited

But why don't those girls use the girls' bathroom? Why are they using the trans bathroom if they're not trans? And the cleanliness is a management issue.

And like I said, there is no perfect solution. There are people objecting to every possible bathroom permutation. You'll never please everyone. But I believe that third spaces for trans people are the fairest way to go.

AccidentallyWesAnderson · 04/05/2025 10:47

StuckUpPrincess · 04/05/2025 10:20

I think my position is logical, fair, and easy to understand.

I, personally, am OK with sharing with TW and so I find the judgement and JK to be transphobic - specifically, that even TW who have fully transitioned and hold GRCs aren't allowed in women's loos.

However, since many women feel uncomfortable sharing with TW, we should go for third spaces, since it's not only TW's feelings that matter.

What's inconsistent or illogical about that?

You think it’s inconsistent and illogical to deem women as biological women?

selffellatingouroborosofhate · 04/05/2025 10:48

StuckUpPrincess · 04/05/2025 06:56

You said that trans people are delusional. Therefore, you meant that they are living under a permanent delusion. Delusions are a symptom of serious mental illness. So if trans people are delusional, they must be very unwell. How can someone live a normal productive life if they are so unwell that they are always delusional?

The answer, of course, is that transpeople are not delusional.

Many people hold the delusion that, despite the lack of supporting evidence, that there are angels, ghosts, or demons. Many people hold the delusion that fate exists. Many hold the delusion of "karma" or another form of the "just world" fallacy. And that's before I get into suggesting that a belief in a deity might be a form of delusion.

Most of these people who believe that a house can be haunted, that a newborn baby is assigned a guardian angel at birth, that learning disabilities and mental illness are caused by demonic possession and call the exorcist to their SEND children, that "everything happens for a reason, or that "what goes around comes around" have jobs, families, and homes. They drive, they raise children, they go shopping, they cook, they vacuum clean.

A delusion is, under most circumstances, not a barrier to having a productive life.

Judashascomeintosomemoney · 04/05/2025 10:48

StuckUpPrincess · 04/05/2025 10:30

You can't, unless he's changing right next to you.

So, logically, as seen as you can’t tell by looking, what do you think would be a good way to ensure that men avec penis don’t use women’s spaces even though you don’t mind those sans penis?

(the Sock Drawer Problem springs to mind)

StuckUpPrincess · 04/05/2025 10:48

Helleofabore · 04/05/2025 10:45

Sorry? I am confused.

You believe that people only go to the toilet in small businesses with one toilet and that is the norm?

Just because your local Waterstones cafe managed just fine with one enclosed loo, doesn't mean that my local M&S cafe does, nor the local pubs nor department stores or large shopping centres. Nor airports, hospitals and offices.

But those spaces you mention would not be as small as my Waterstone's. They would have room for a third space for trans people, in addition to the regular male and female loos.

EweSurname · 04/05/2025 10:49

I agree. The solution that would be pragmatic would be:
Mainly single sex toilets for men and women (with stalls, communal sinks, gaps in doors)
Disabled toilets
Some provision for unisex (fully enclosed, sink in cubicle)

Helleofabore · 04/05/2025 10:49

StuckUpPrincess · 04/05/2025 10:43

I don't mean fully transitioned as in "now fully a woman." I mean fully transitioned in that they have done all the transitioning they can do.

I disagree that a fully transitioned TW is a regular man who has done certain things. But I respect that others have a different view.

"I disagree that a fully transitioned TW is a regular man who has done certain things. "

You asked up thread where people were finally your posts lacks coherence and basic logic.

This statement is just one of numerous that you have made and keep repeating.

Do you understand the logic fail in your statement? There are many other male people who have undergone the same removal of penis and testes surgeries for a range of health issues such as injury and disease. Some of those diseases even mean that they are on similar hormones.

Yet you cannot explain what makes the ones who declare they are 'woman' different to the ones who are not declaring they are 'women'.

And in both situations, under your definition, both groups of these male people should be allowed to use any female single sex space that you have determined that they should be able to be used.

DefineHappy · 04/05/2025 10:50

2021x · 04/05/2025 09:27

I have been reflected alot on this ruling. I remember when we were at school and learned about civil rights. There was a picture of one of the black kids going to school at Little Rock and all these white kids shouting (almost certainly racist lurs) at them. I remember thinking I don't want to be seen by history for being intolerant and one of these people.

I think, therefore one of the issues that noone is pushing back on are that most recent human rights movements are now so inclusive that they they remove all meaning and then there are no actual rights end up being protected because you can't legislate for anything.

Trans means different things to different people. A Transwoman who has done the therapy, and had the medication and gone through with gender reassignment surgery poses a significantly less risk to womenn in private spaces than a TG woman who has just had breast implants and nothing else. A transman who has done the gambit, will have very different needs from a confused transmasc teenager who isn't emotionally mature enough to deal with the stares from creepy old me when their breasts develop.

The same is happening with to the people with neuro-atypical diagnosis i.e. Autism, Torrets and ADHD. They are now having to share their space with people who are "Neuro-divserse" which doesn't have any specific meaning and is often self-diagnosed. They have wildly different needs and expectations of how they can participate in society, and this just sets back the advances made by disability acts.

We know the most recent iteration of trans rights is actually mens rights in disguise because of the way they have been bullying women. We know some of this has been straight men who are just creeps, but alot of it has been gay men who have been out of work since marriage equality passed (looking at you Tatchell). Thats why the message has always been confusing. The people who it actually effects i.e. Trans Women and Trans men are rarely heard.

Edited

You might be happy to think Sarah Jane Baker is less of a risk or more of a TW than someone who has not had surgery, etc, but I do not.

I no wish to be in the presence of someone in my single sex space who has cut off their own genitals, takes hormones, dresses as a woman and still incites the rabid TRA crowds to “punch a TERF in the fucking face”.

I also don’t want to be in a single sex space reserved for biological females, and be confronted with any male, regardless of how they think, act or dress - they are MALE.

Cloudtime · 04/05/2025 10:51

LadyBracknellsHandbagg · 04/05/2025 03:14

‘I think what it comes down to is that JK and people who agree with her do not believe that there is any such thing as a genuine transwoman’

This is the only true thing in your whole post. Try staying in touch with reality, it’ll help you understand that people can’t change sex and that TIM’s are men.

I would be very interested to know if you actually know any trans people ? If you’ve actually even had any conversation whatsoever with any one trans person?
If your opinion that it’s a mental health issue is actually based on?

Are you aware of the main reasons why many trans people don’t have bottom surgery ? The physical risks and financial implications that make it impossible for many?
Have you ever actually been or felt personally threatened by an actual trans person ?
How do you feel about trans men being forced to now use women’s bathrooms?
How do you feel about about masc presenting women being challenged about their use of women’s bathrooms ?
You are very vocal about this topic and I would like to assume that you have at least some knowledge or experience rather than just parroting some opinions you’ve read .

Aizen · 04/05/2025 10:52

Re enclosed cubicles and lack of gaps and safety issues and so on?

Surely some engineering genius (or just little ole me) could think of putting a mesh screen or similar in the gap. So that pervert cameras cannot be shoved underneath, and it can be seen if a person has fallen.

What have I missed here?

Bluebootsgreenboots · 04/05/2025 10:52

I think there should be more emphysis on mental health treatment and counselling to work out exactly what a persons issues are.
@mumandgran24

In my experience, young people who self identify as trans do engage with mental health support in good faith. They want the hormones, and swap tips on Reddit of how to go about it, including recounting what their therapist has asked and how to answer in order to progress to the next gate. They are not interested in finding the source of their discomfort. Any unwanted questioning is interpreted as transphobic, thanks the professional could quickly have their name up online for all to berate them.
Hence JKR calling out the virtue signallers being so important.

StuckUpPrincess · 04/05/2025 10:52

EweSurname · 04/05/2025 10:49

I agree. The solution that would be pragmatic would be:
Mainly single sex toilets for men and women (with stalls, communal sinks, gaps in doors)
Disabled toilets
Some provision for unisex (fully enclosed, sink in cubicle)

Yes, exactly. I'm sure some people will object to this too, but it's the fairest solution to the greatest amount of people.

Helleofabore · 04/05/2025 10:52

StuckUpPrincess · 04/05/2025 10:48

But those spaces you mention would not be as small as my Waterstone's. They would have room for a third space for trans people, in addition to the regular male and female loos.

I have been responding to your posting this statement:

I wonder if places will move away from the current toilet model which is one large room containing lots of cubicles, to lots of separate and totally enclosed loos that everyone uses, like you get in Waterstone's and Starbucks. Swimming pools and sports centres should have separate rooms for transpeople, and I wouldn't have thought hospitals and prisons would have any trouble designating spaced for trans people, if they wanted to.

Just to be clear "to lots of separate and totally enclosed loos that everyone uses".

With this pondering, you actively dismissed the needs of female people who need single sex spaces because you didn't see the need for them.

Waitwhat23 · 04/05/2025 10:54

Sigh. I'm sure it's been said already on this thread but for anyone who's interested, Google Mumsnet and Third Spaces and see how often it's been suggested and discussed and dismissed by TRA's as transphobic and othering. Many times. For years.

Or better yet, if you think saying 'you're all nasty transphobes, of course third spaces would solve the issue!', why don't you pop on Reddit, make that suggestion and see what the reaction is. Pretty sure the reaction won't be somewhat exasperated discussion like it is here but will show you an perfect example of hatred of women who say no.

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