Thank You from a Trans Lurker

[Seethlaw]

I want to thank you all wonderful people for fighting the good fight despite everything that's been thrown at you. I was an intermittent lurker for years before your arguments finally made it through my barriers. I'm in awe of your courage and tenacity and impossible patience!

I'm a trans man from another European country. I used to be extremely baffled by you GC people. I couldn't help but wonder what on Earth possessed you to go after trans people. I couldn't understand how anyone could think that trans people, that minuscule minority, was any kind of threat to anyone. I was devastated when I learned that one of my favourite authors (not JKR) had "gone TERF".

Again and again, I went back to what I thought were the basics: there is nothing wrong with being trans, and we just want to live our lives in peace.

But stuff happened over the years, some in real life and some on MN where I would lurk once in a while. Coincidentally, it was on the day of the UKSC ruling that I found myself here again, and I was absolutely horrified, and I finally accepted the unacceptable: it was never the TERFs going after the trans. It was the trans going after women's places and even the very definition of the word "woman".

Since then, I've watched the fallout of the SC decision. And my stomach has been sinking as trans person after trans person has come here, trotted out the same old, long-debunked arguments, and hurled abuse and disrespect in the name of "Me, me, me!" And the thing is, I can't even fool myself that they are not "real" trans people.

Back when I transitioned, more than a decade ago, in my country, I searched for trans support groups, and I encountered that very phenomenon of trans people (mostly trans women, though by no means all of them) demanding that the world twist around them. I told myself then that they were not representative of trans people, but the thing is: they are the loudest ones, and the most demanding ones - and as such, the most visible ones. I don't know yet what I can or will do about that, but at least now I'm aware that when people talk about trans people, they might be thinking of such individuals.

Thank you to anyone who read that far, and thank you again for everything you've done. You people rock 👍 !!

Its safeguarding, dignity and having to live in a society were state sanctioned 'woman face' is embraced.

Oh, be polite to the man who is trying hard to pass. Hes even the voice, he must be genuine.

Oh i absolutely agree with you, it's not so much of a 'don't worry we're one of the good ones' if a woman comes across a TW in her space or out in the wild but more a harm reduction in general if a male goes to a doctor and says they 'want to be a woman' and theyre going to potentially give this person a recommendation to medically transition.

Oh dont worry Im aware that it is a case here of 'we can't tell which ones are the bad ones!' and not 'they're all bad'!

I hope that didn't come across as an in to allow for the inclusion of males into female sex-spaces because my above post absolutely wasn't getting at that (I'm not always as clear as I hope I am), it's more i don't think doctors are always doing enough harm reduction (not just where women are concerned but for the patients themselves) in general but I suppose unscrupulous people know how to play the system anyway.

In my experience, there are templates out there as to what to tell a doctor to get the diagnosis of gender dysphoria. So screening out, say, the AGPs would be difficult since that wouldn't be how they would present themselves.

Oh dont worry Im aware that it is a case here of 'we can't tell which ones are the bad ones!' and not 'they're all bad'!

Im trying to think of a situation where a man declares himself a women, and its good for women?

Yeah, I'm sadly aware of these things existing too as well people telling each other what to say to doctors in online groups also.

I didn’t take it as such. Thanks for clarifying.

However, I have had far too many of these discussions in the past where the needs outside of safety are not acknowledged and a poster will be having the discussion and twist it to be a wheedling statement about allowing them access. Please don’t take it to mean that you will do this, I can think of one previous male poster who was very clear he would not use female provisions so I know there are some. Come to think of it, I also remember him being horribly abused, by other male posters who told us they were women, when he defended female single sex provisions. He left the board after that.

I think many regular posters on this board have joined discussions in good faith in the past to find that the thread was one big ‘wheedle’ if you understand what I mean. Or all focused on ‘what can I get you to agree with so that you will allow me access to your spaces’.

Thanks for this post. I've lurked this board long enough to have seen previous TWs posting as you describe, though not that particular case I don't think.

Obviously I can't speak for other TWs, but for me personally, as I mentioned my transition is entirely about me being comfortable in my body. For me, the way I experience gender dysphoria, I honestly don't require external affirmation at all. So accessing single-sex spaces doesn't feature on my agenda, why would it? People can call me a man, why would I care? If I lived alone on a desert island for the rest of my life, I would have transitioned identically. Finally understanding myself was what I benefited from. I lived many years wondering why I felt the way I did and how I could make it stop. I've got some peace now, and I feel it has made me a nicer person to be around. If people see me as a man in a dress, so be it, I am (well I actually don't wear many dresses, trousers are much more practical!).

I'm glad it didn't across that way.

Oh for sure, I recognise there's also the necessary need of privacy for the different needs women have to men, plus if a woman who's faith required her to be in a space absent of males... that could actually place her in bad standing with her family/husband etc.

No, I fully understand that. It was actually a worry of mine that women here may feel like that's exactly what my intention is, to weedle my way in. But I also recognise that, regardless of being trans or however I may see myself, I am a male in a feminist space so I will be viewed with at least a certain amount of caution/suspicion especially considering the things you've mentioned.

I absolutely have no intention of weedling my way in anywhere, convincing anyone of anything different to what they already think or trying to change anyone. Just in case that's not clear :)

It is a natural reaction for the people
who have been on this board for years to be suspicious. And frankly, we will remain so due to extensive past experience.

We get visits from some of the well known male extreme transgender activists (ie those who demand gender prioritises sex when it should be sex that matters), even one of their mothers at one time. They come for their own reasons but usually these are to berate us or try their arguments out on us. It generally ends with accusations about how hateful we are.

I think it might be why some poster’s accusations fail to do more than get mocked these days. I genuinely think they must believe they have a new angle or a new accusation and that we hadn’t already analysed it and deeply considered it and rejected it.

No, I absolutely wouldn't expect you to stop any level of caution or suspicion.

Somebody's mother?? Honestly, I couldn't imagine asking my mother to join an online forum in defense of trans rights. That's actually so absurd that even happened.

Before I transitioned my mother was tempted to join to post GC stuff! 😆

I am not sure he even knew. But she was here.

Ah yes, the unmotored but wheeled transport user's mum.

correct. She last flounced after I pointed yet more research that disagreed with her position and she told us she was off to speak to the NZ Sports minister or some sports representative there IIRC. Which was super impressive, we told her so of course, and suggested some links to show them.

IIRC she was very unhappy that Harper’s review showed the same results as the Hilton Lundberg review.

I also think that fundamentally, when you come from a culture where every inanimate object has a gender which can't be changed, so you know that a table is feminine and can never be masculine, and a snail is masculine even if it is female, the idea that humans can change gender is never quite going to compute.

Re French grammar and gender! I would love to read an in-depth study of this. How language shapes our perception.

I still have no idea how French (or other languages) decided which things were masc/fem gender so it's not something i know much about.

We still have some in English, oddly ships and cars are she. I have no idea why, other than that it was traditionally men who utilised them, which is an uncomfortable thought when you think about it like that.

@murasaki
I find the use of She to describe cars and ships as really quite insulting.

This is something I found which may explain it. "Another tradition is to consider ships as female, referring to them as ‘she’. Although it may sound strange referring to an inanimate object as ‘she’, this tradition relates to the idea of a female figure such as a mother or goddess guiding and protecting a ship and crew. Another idea is that in many languages, objects are referred to using feminine or masculine nouns. This is less common in English which tends to use gender-neutral nouns, however referring to ships as ‘she’ may refer to far more ancient traditions."

https://www.iwm.org.uk/history/why-do-ships-have-a-gender#:~:text=Although%20it%20may%20sound%20strange,using%20feminine%20or%20masculine%20nouns.

I also wonder if the use of 'she' is because men love boats and cars and so they kind of use she because they are an object of affection. But again, being an object of affection does sound insulting!

@Seethlaw

I wonder if you worry about the available spaces like unisex or gender neutral toilets in the UK, if you visit? my son is a trans man and I worry about the facilities available.

Very late to catching up with this thread but would like to respond to a comment made about the growth of trans culture coming from America.

The growth came in both the US and UK because of the invasion of queer politics into universities. the obvious example was that even within a few years of them being established Women's Studies became Gender studies.

But one of the main (culprits) of the growth in queer politics was in fact French! Michel Foucaul. But was part of the concept of disrupting the norms. The most extreme of which is to challenge the reality of biology as being the same as how you identify.

And in terms of the US and UK it was the spread of this politics from universities into positions of influence in the media etc..

And it is only relatively recently to the influence in 1970/80 (?) universities that it seeped into popular culture. eg in the UK Stonewall ceasing to be about same sex attracted people and adopting the whole rainbow umbrella. (which may well just have been an opportunity to capitalise financially on the growth in the concept of trans - not gender dysphoria - in popular culture)

Sorry this is a very short and not very good lead up to the quesiton I want to ask of the contributors from France.

Is the academic culture in France more "conservative" in the sense that traditional subjects are taught, and there isn't the growth which the UK and US have of universities having ever more rarified subjects. (only found out the other day that a university in the UK has set up a museum of "Transology" which in other countries might have been seen as an art installation but here is a "serious" project of collecting and establishing history).

If French newpapers and tv are not full of queer educated young people earnestly telling their employers they aren't in touch with a new reality, which is what happened here, maybe that is one of the reasons there are not endless news item in terms of never ending articles about the oppression of trans people that happen in the UK and US.

And how many politicians in France are desperately standing on a soap box to vigorously virtue their support for trans people or even assert they are non binary or something.

Strange when in terms of cliches Anglo Saxons are seen as not very liberal and a bit inclined to conform, that both the US and UK have been so receptive to the concept of disrupting the norm. (Obviously both countries are multi racial but in terms of the power elite the heritiage is AS.)

NB in using the word trans I am referring to people who mainly seem to have adopted this identity as part of a cultural grouping, rather than someone who is gender dysphoric.

Middle-aged men and 14 year old girls weren't finding trans through Michel Foucault and gender studies at universities, though.

It meant that those taught gender were more willing to accept trans ideology as more than internet spread subgroups or male fetishes.

As these 14 year old tumblr girls moved to universities their teenage identies were confirmed by universities obsession with queer theory.

And the men with fetishes rode that wave.

I do wonder about it, yes. I don't want to risk bothering women in a ladies'. I don't want to risk creating legal problems for the provider by going to the gents'. So if there're no unisex toilets, I'm stuck.

That said, there are apps that claim to provide lists of unisex toilets. So I'd probably get one of those.

And if there's really no choice... I honestly don't know. My reflex is still to use the gents', because I like the way they do it (get in, do your business, wash your hands, avoid all social interaction!), but I have a feeling it would also heavily depend on the circumstances (lots of traffic or not, only strangers or not, stuff like that.)

@IwantToRetire

"Is the academic culture in France more "conservative" in the sense that traditional subjects are taught, and there isn't the growth which the UK and US have of universities having ever more rarified subjects."

A quick internet search pulls up a few university diplomas specifically on the topic of gender, and they all seem to be pretty recent. As for the topic of trans, I seem to find only additional studies aimed at medical professionals on how to deal with trans patients. So yeah, apparently we are much more traditional.

"If French newpapers and tv are not full of queer educated young people earnestly telling their employers they aren't in touch with a new reality,"

Well, obviously, I'm not in those organisations, so I don't know if they have such people among them, but I doubt that there would be many of them, and even more that they would be listened to if they started asking for too much.

The social contract still exists here, so trans people can use the toilets of their choice, as long as they don't deliberately bother the other users. And name changes are relatively easy to obtain and quite accepted and accommodated. So really, there isn't much for the queer educated young people to complain about.

"And how many politicians in France are desperately standing on a soap box to vigorously virtue their support for trans people or even assert they are non binary or something."

None. A few politicians sometimes support law amendments regarding trans rights, which is the normal working of a parliamentary democracy, but there's absolutely no sense that trans people are any kind of special or particularly powerful, and must absolutely be pandered to. As for non-binary, it's pretty much a non-entity here.

"NB in using the word trans I am referring to people who mainly seem to have adopted this identity as part of a cultural grouping, rather than someone who is gender dysphoric."

I'm not in the community anymore, but I'm not even sure that happens at all here. There's just not enough trans people, and we are so utterly devoid of political power, that it would make any sense to create any kind of cultural grouping around us. I mean, when I went to support groups, we were very much outsiders in the LGBT community, certainly not the new trendy thing. I can't imagine that it's changed so completely in a decade.

Obviously not!

I know I wrote in haste but was describing the time line.

How what could have existed for years as an obscure corner of university courses, grew into a social influential concept.

If those indoctinated students hadn't moved into politics, the news media, the arts etc., most of the western world, let alone current 14 years olds would be bothering with thinking about having a trans identity.

And I thought it was clear that is what I was talking about as it was in response to where did this come from.

Maybe a current academic could do a study of why this particular at the time strand of elitist academic nonsense, that was really on no purpose other than to give Judith Butler a career, could find out why these willing acolytes were so willing to become true believers.

I suspect you will find it was (and still is) part of the male backlash against women's liberation.

Which at that time seemed to be well towards becoming an acceptable concept in society.

But the sex is the same as gender academic mythical studies were just a useful as making equality silly by publicising girl power as liberating, and 3rd wave feminism (probably through ageism as much as anything else) to endlessly and roundly denouce 70s feminist.

And the TRAs only have power because of the underlying culture of MRAs.

What better way to undermine the politics of Women's Liberation that was based on the reality that the male sex class discriminated against the female sex class.

If sex if not a real think then how can men be accused of sex discrimination, sex based violence, etc., etc..

I see the rise of trans as being parallel to the rise of drag as a mainstrea artform and maybe dependent on the latter