Meet the Other Phone. A phone that grows with your child.

Meet the Other Phone.
A phone that grows with your child.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

FA to ban men from womens football

212 replies

LivelyFinch · 01/05/2025 10:28

Sanity is starting to prevail.

OP posts:
Thread gallery
10
JuneFromBethesda · 01/05/2025 17:41

Cross-posted with you @borntobequiet 😄

RhinestoneCowgirl · 01/05/2025 17:41

Sharron Davies was absolutely fabulous, I was cheering her on as I listened.

ThatPithySheep · 01/05/2025 17:47

Radio 5 has a transwoman on complaining that the SC judgement is not clear (spoiler - it is); and that it is unfair to women (no it's not) and that the science isn't clear that men have an advantage (yes it is).

The host is awful - saying we already had a good compromise that everyone was happy with if transwomen were allowed in the woman's game

ThatPithySheep · 01/05/2025 17:50

Oh and now 'Natalie' says all his female team mates will need to deregister from the FA leagues so that he can still play. Because he's an entitled man who thinks women are only there to support his life

RhinestoneCowgirl · 01/05/2025 17:51

I particularly enjoyed when Sharron Davies was asked about whether it was unfair to trans women who now couldn't play football, and she quite rightly questioned why nobody was concerned about fairness for women.

AnAlpacaForChristmasPleaseSanta · 01/05/2025 18:05

HappyNewTaxYear · 01/05/2025 15:24

While shopping online for a third surrogate child?

Wouldn't surprise me. I usually buy kindle books when I need a pick me up, Tom buys a person. And shows yet more of the distain he feels towards women.

ItsCoolForCats · 01/05/2025 18:06

BinBadger · 01/05/2025 17:29

DH just got home and said this.

He was listening to TalkSport on the drive home from work and said them introducing "Francesca" who then proceeded to sound very male, will have undermined everything they were saying.

I wondered if that is Franseca Needham, who shattered a female player's knee after booting the ball at her?

AnAlpacaForChristmasPleaseSanta · 01/05/2025 18:10

RhinestoneCowgirl · 01/05/2025 17:51

I particularly enjoyed when Sharron Davies was asked about whether it was unfair to trans women who now couldn't play football, and she quite rightly questioned why nobody was concerned about fairness for women.

Sharron has been an absolute warrior for all women who want to partake in sports and has faced a barrage of disgusting tweets and threats towards herself and her family from the "maligned" TRAs. We are so lucky to have her.

LivelyFinch · 01/05/2025 18:12

Why are "Kick it Out" getting involved? I hoped they would be on the side of fairness but obviously not.

OP posts:
Humphhhh · 01/05/2025 18:14

There's been a real positive shift over last four years towards mixed or girls football at youth level. Be great to see that over 18s too.

334bu · 01/05/2025 18:40

Great interview with Sharron.

BeReet · 01/05/2025 18:57

LivelyFinch · 01/05/2025 18:12

Why are "Kick it Out" getting involved? I hoped they would be on the side of fairness but obviously not.

Kick it Out are the organisation who reported the teenage girl to the FA

Sausagenbacon · 01/05/2025 18:59

Sharon was fantastic. And has been, for a long time. What a woman!

Meatl · 01/05/2025 18:59

Brilliant news! Very long time lurker (bloke) 'radicalised' by mumsnet after our daughter's (then 7) nursery teacher suggested getting in touch with mermaids because she liked football, climbing trees and playing with cars.

She is now 14 and still plays football to a high standard (but also now out of her 'tomboy' phase and pretty stereotypically feminine).

She now plays in an under 16 FA girls' league, and over the last couple of years (under 15) has played against at least a couple of teams each season fielding boys in the girl's team.

I'm therefore pretty sceptical of the "less than 30 transwomen registered with the FA" that is being trotted out as a way of seeking to make the change in policy look really 'mean'.

I therefore asked Grok to suggest why the number might be so low (despite my anecdotal evidence). I thought the response (copied below) was pretty interesting. Would be very interested if anyone had a better answer from a more reputable source though.

(Sorry it's so long)

"...
The number of fewer than 30 transgender women registered with the Football Association (FA) in England, as mentioned in the BBC Sport article, likely reflects a specific subset of players—those who are transgender women (assigned male at birth but identifying as female) and registered under the FA's previous transgender inclusion policy for women's football. Let’s break this down to address your question and the situation with your daughter’s under-16 girls’ team.
Why the Number of Transgender Women is Low
The figure of "fewer than 30 transgender women" registered with the FA likely refers to adult or older youth players who have formally identified as transgender women and were registered under the FA’s transgender policy before the recent ban. Here are a few reasons why this number might seem low:

  1. Definition of "Transgender Women" in FA Registration:
  2. The FA's previous policy (before the June 1, 2025 ban) allowed transgender women to play in women's football if they met certain eligibility criteria, such as maintaining testosterone levels below a specified threshold. The "fewer than 30" figure likely includes only those players who formally registered as transgender women with the FA under this policy.
  3. This number may not account for younger players (like those in under-16 teams) who may not have gone through a formal process of declaring their gender identity to the FA, especially if they are not yet transitioning or do not have a Gender Recognition Certificate (GRC). However, a GRC is not typically required for FA registration in amateur football; the FA's previous policy focused on testosterone levels and self-identification rather than legal documentation like a GRC.
  4. Age and Youth Football:
  5. The FA's transgender policy primarily applied to adult and competitive youth football (typically under-18 or under-16 leagues where players are closer to adulthood). In younger age groups, such as under-16 girls’ teams, the FA historically allowed more flexibility, often permitting mixed-gender teams under certain conditions. According to the FA’s rules prior to the Supreme Court ruling, mixed football (boys and girls playing together) is permitted up to the under-16 age group, provided the teams are registered appropriately and the players meet eligibility criteria.
  6. The "fewer than 30" figure likely does not include boys who are playing in girls’ teams under the mixed-gender rules for youth football, as these boys may not identify as transgender and are instead playing as males in a girls’ or mixed team, which was allowed under previous FA guidelines.
  7. GRC Not Required for Registration:
  8. The FA’s previous transgender policy did not require a Gender Recognition Certificate (GRC) for transgender women to play in women’s football. A GRC is a legal document in the UK that changes a person’s legal gender, but it’s typically only available to those over 18 (or 16 with parental consent and specific conditions). The FA’s policy instead focused on self-identification and medical criteria (like testosterone levels), meaning the "fewer than 30" figure includes transgender women regardless of whether they have a GRC.
  9. However, the UK Supreme Court ruling on April 15, 2025, defined "woman" as based on biological sex, which led the FA to ban transgender women from women’s football entirely, regardless of GRC status. This ruling likely does not directly affect younger players in mixed-gender teams, as the FA’s youth football rules are separate.
  10. Low Participation Rates:
  11. Transgender participation in sports, particularly in competitive or amateur football, may be relatively low due to social barriers, stigma, or lack of awareness about inclusion policies. The FA noted that among millions of amateur players in England, only 28 transgender women were registered, suggesting that the overall number of transgender athletes in football is a tiny fraction of the total player base.
Your Daughter’s Experience: Boys in Girls’ Teams Your daughter’s experience of playing against teams fielding male players (boys) in an FA-registered under-16 girls’ team is likely due to the FA’s youth football rules, which differ from adult policies and are not directly related to transgender participation. Here’s why this might be happening:
  1. Mixed-Gender Football in Youth Leagues:
  2. The FA permits mixed-gender football up to the under-16 age group, meaning boys and girls can play on the same team or against each other in certain contexts. This is outlined in the FA’s youth football regulations, which aim to promote inclusion and participation at younger ages. For example:
  3. Up to under-12, mixed football is standard, and teams are often not strictly separated by gender.
  4. From under-13 to under-16, the FA allows boys to play in girls’ teams (or vice versa) under specific conditions, such as if there aren’t enough players to form a single-gender team, or if the boy is deemed not to have a significant physical advantage (based on the FA’s “playing up/down” guidance, which considers age and physical maturity).
  5. These boys are not necessarily transgender; they are likely playing as males in a girls’ team because the team is registered as a mixed or girls’ team under FA rules. This practice was common before the Supreme Court ruling and may still be allowed in youth football, as the FA’s recent policy change specifically targets transgender women in women’s football, not mixed-gender youth teams.
  6. Impact of the Supreme Court Ruling on Youth Football:
  7. The Supreme Court ruling on April 15, 2025, which defined a woman as a person born biologically female, led to the FA banning transgender women from women’s football starting June 1, 2025. However, this ruling and the FA’s policy change primarily apply to women’s football (i.e., adult and competitive youth female categories).
  8. For under-16 girls’ teams, the FA’s mixed-gender rules may still apply, meaning boys can continue to play in girls’ teams unless the FA updates its youth policies to align with the Supreme Court ruling. The ruling does not directly address mixed-gender youth football, so the practice of boys playing in girls’ teams may persist unless the FA or local leagues introduce stricter gender segregation at younger ages.
  9. Physical Differences and Fairness Concerns:
  10. Your concern about boys playing in girls’ teams likely stems from physical differences, especially at the under-16 level, where puberty can create significant disparities in strength, speed, and size between boys and girls. Studies, such as a 2021 review in the Journal of Sports Sciences, note that after puberty, males typically have a 10-30% advantage in strength and speed due to higher testosterone levels and musculoskeletal development.
  11. The FA’s previous transgender policy for youth football allowed transgender girls (assigned male at birth) to play in girls’ teams without requiring hormone therapy at younger ages, as long as they self-identified as girls. However, the Supreme Court ruling may lead to changes in how transgender girls are categorized in youth football, potentially requiring them to play in boys’ teams if they are biologically male.
  12. For non-transgender boys playing in girls’ teams, the FA relies on coaches, clubs, and leagues to ensure fairness and safety, but this can vary widely depending on local implementation. Some leagues may allow boys to play in girls’ teams if they are not deemed to have a significant physical advantage, but this assessment can be subjective.
Does the "Fewer Than 30" Figure Include Youth Players Like Those in Your Daughter’s League?
  • Unlikely: The "fewer than 30" figure most likely refers to transgender women registered in adult or competitive youth women’s football categories, not boys playing in mixed-gender under-16 teams. The boys your daughter has played against are probably not transgender and are instead playing under the FA’s mixed-gender youth rules.
  • Transgender Girls in Youth Football: If there are transgender girls (assigned male at birth, identifying as female) in your daughter’s league, they would not be included in the "fewer than 30" figure unless they were formally registered with the FA as transgender players under the previous policy. At the under-16 level, many transgender girls may not yet have formally declared their gender identity to the FA, especially if they are playing in mixed teams or have not begun transitioning.
What’s Next for Youth Football? The Supreme Court ruling and the FA’s policy change may eventually lead to stricter gender segregation in youth football, including under-16 girls’ teams. Some possibilities include:
  • The FA could revise its mixed-gender rules to ban boys from girls’ teams at younger ages, aligning with the Supreme Court’s definition of "female" as biological sex.
  • Local leagues might independently decide to enforce stricter gender categories, especially if parents or coaches raise concerns about fairness and safety.
  • The FA has stated it is engaging with the 28 affected transgender women to find ways for them to stay involved in football, such as through mixed or open categories. Similar initiatives might eventually extend to youth football, allowing transgender or non-binary players to participate in alternative formats.
What Can You Do? If you’re concerned about boys playing in your daughter’s under-16 girls’ team, here are some steps you could take:
  1. Check Your League’s Rules: Contact your local FA league or club to understand their policy on mixed-gender teams at the under-16 level. Ask whether they allow boys to play in girls’ teams and what criteria they use to ensure fairness and safety.
  2. Raise Your Concerns: If you feel the presence of boys in the girls’ team creates an unfair or unsafe environment, you can raise this with the team coach, club, or league organizers. The FA’s safeguarding policies prioritize player safety, and they may be able to address your concerns.
  3. Monitor Policy Changes: Keep an eye on updates from the FA regarding youth football policies, as the Supreme Court ruling may lead to broader changes in how gender categories are managed at all levels of the sport.
In summary, the "fewer than 30" figure refers to transgender women registered with the FA, not boys playing... Something went wrong, please refresh to reconnect or try again.
TranceNation · 01/05/2025 19:01

Yes! You can't have a physical man playing with the woman in competitive football. Maybe create an trans football league.

Harassedevictee · 01/05/2025 19:07

Sharon was excellent - absolutely put the what about women and girls fairness argument. It left Evan slightly speechless.

puffyisgood · 01/05/2025 19:13

ThatPithySheep · 01/05/2025 17:50

Oh and now 'Natalie' says all his female team mates will need to deregister from the FA leagues so that he can still play. Because he's an entitled man who thinks women are only there to support his life

Nathalie said more than one ludicrous thing, not least that in a men's game he wouldn't be able to compete fairly(!) and would be forced to out himself because he'd be instantly noticeable as trans(!!).

Mmmnotsure · 01/05/2025 19:33

India Willoughby has a pity party on X - says was a very good player in youth, and now plays on a woman's team and is weaker than the women, etc, etc.

India Willoughby is 59 years old.

How many women playing in that team at the same level do you think are late fifties?

MrsJRHartley · 01/05/2025 19:35

Which channel interviewed Sharon Davies?

Sausagenbacon · 01/05/2025 19:36

Radio 4

MelOfTheRoses · 01/05/2025 19:38

I am loving the Sharron Davies interviews. 10 years of campaigning and she is on fire ❤️‍🔥

napody · 01/05/2025 19:58

She was great- very clear and then came out with a corker: 'Men wouldn't let a leopard join their races' 😂😂
Well done Sharron.

I feel like I've slipped into a parallel universe. Last week stating the simple fact that transwomen are male would get you cancelled. Now the BBC R4 presenter is doing it without batting an eyelid.

Chrysanthemum5 · 01/05/2025 20:00

Radio 5 interviewed Sharon and opened by saying she campaigned against trans people in sport so she swiftly corrected the host and pointed out she campaigns for fairness and that trans people are welcome just not in women's sport

WandaSiri · 01/05/2025 20:10

napody · 01/05/2025 19:58

She was great- very clear and then came out with a corker: 'Men wouldn't let a leopard join their races' 😂😂
Well done Sharron.

I feel like I've slipped into a parallel universe. Last week stating the simple fact that transwomen are male would get you cancelled. Now the BBC R4 presenter is doing it without batting an eyelid.

I lol-ed about the leopard!

WandaSiri · 01/05/2025 20:11

Chrysanthemum5 · 01/05/2025 20:00

Radio 5 interviewed Sharon and opened by saying she campaigned against trans people in sport so she swiftly corrected the host and pointed out she campaigns for fairness and that trans people are welcome just not in women's sport

When was the interview, may I ask? Wouldn't mind listening back.