Trans men using female spaces

[GoldenGate]

Not seen a thread about this. Just saw a clip of the wonderful Hannah and Jake Graf on Lorraine. Usual oh we're so scared where to pee and its not fair what the SC ruling and EHRC have done. However what stood out was Jake stating she's not allowed to use mens loos (right) and also not allowed to use the female because she is a trans man. Is the second of those actually right? It would be terribly contradictory to biological sex. I get they could be excluded from eg. womens counselling sessions if their male appearance would be an issue, but surely not loos/changing rooms except the angle men could just pretend to be trans men.

How does an inner sense 'align' with biological sex? Can you describe this inner sense?

With an open category (men’s plus others) you would need different requirements eg sanitary bins versus bigger ‘bins for boys’ for men. To have both in would need a bigger toilet cubicle. No urinals as men wouldn’t feel comfy and flashing problems if girls and women there. Also the cubicle should have gaps for health and safety so I don’t think that’s fair on men who may not be able to ‘go’ if there’s a woman in the next cubicle.

Then there’s the sinks. It’s bad enough trying to get men washing their hands at all. I would bet (though I haven’t seen studies on it) that women spend longer at the sinks.

I don’t like mixed sex toilets as I have done research and have some stats for assaults in public and school toilets. Taking away the enclosed private design would make it safer but is the only known design for mixed sex.

Privacy is also a problem with medical emergencies of course.
There are tens of thousands of people with invisible disabilities who need the reasonable adjustment of single sex design because it’s the design with door gaps. These people have been forgotten in the trend of making public toilets mixed sex and enclosed. And of course any of us could feel ill, head to the toilet and collapse. It’s why the doors can be altered on modern designs to open outwards so rescuers can get a body out.

Men of a certain age are more likely to have a stroke or heart attack (than a young woman) so it’s proper that they have door gaps for safety too.

I think safety should come first.

If they look convincing then they can just use the mens.
There was a woman who was presumably trans when I was at a cafe the other day, despite an unusually shaped thick beard, so presumably hormone treatment or stuck on, she was still very clearly female before she even spoke.
I'd assume the ruling is to avoid men pretending they are females who identify as males to get access. In reality it's unlikely a female is going to pass as a male once an adult.

I’m sure someone else later in the thread has corrected this, but I couldn’t pass by without observing what a profound misunderstanding of the Equality Act this is

It is a difficult issue. I think most trans men (TIF) are still quite obviously women due to the small size, hips and voice. Maybe the answer is for them to use women’s toilets and services but then be aware that they might be asked to leave if they do actually look like men.

I suppose one issue is lots of them seem to be self deluded enough to think they pass as men and so will self exclude.

I have met two TIFs through work, both who seem to think they look like men, but who are very obviously women. I wouldn’t look twice at them in the women’s toilets, except to think perhaps they might have PCOS like me due to the neck beards.

Maybe it’s different if they are older and have been on testosterone longer, someone like Buck Angel would be less obviously female.

You may not believe it but it looks as if it is the case.

If they are female they should be allowed in a female single sex space regardless of how they look.

I am conflicted. My base assumption/belief is that women use the women's. As in biological women.

This obviously includes trans men (women who think they're men). However: if they have tried to disguise them so well that they get challenged? Meh. Tough. They have gone this to themselves. And they should also stay out of the men's.

Actions have consequences