Trans men using female spaces

[GoldenGate]

Not seen a thread about this. Just saw a clip of the wonderful Hannah and Jake Graf on Lorraine. Usual oh we're so scared where to pee and its not fair what the SC ruling and EHRC have done. However what stood out was Jake stating she's not allowed to use mens loos (right) and also not allowed to use the female because she is a trans man. Is the second of those actually right? It would be terribly contradictory to biological sex. I get they could be excluded from eg. womens counselling sessions if their male appearance would be an issue, but surely not loos/changing rooms except the angle men could just pretend to be trans men.

Then I guess it's okay to discriminate against migrants cos they "chose to come here", and against muslims because they "chose to be muslims".

No because that would be racist and you would be using people of colour to make your offensive false comparison.

Yes, you are clearly baffled.

I'm sorry, I'm confused.

By 'discriminate' do you mean 'ask to use gender neutral/mixed sex provision instead of the women's, in situations where someone who has gone to a lot of trouble to look male, looks male enough to distress women who may be in need of a single sex space?

Whereas I chose to be accepting, and not make harder for someone who's already had a very tough time, being trans. Some kindness would be good here.

Serious question: do you think being trans is just made up?

It's not only trans people who have a very tough time.

Kindness is a two way street and so is being accepting.

Women have rights and needs too, and are not service providers.

Assuming you know people who use they/them pronouns do you refuse to do that too?

Lovely.

Yes, mostly made up.

Gender dysphoria is no longer deemed to be a requirement in order to be considered trans. So what do you think makes someone trans if they don't have gender dysphoria?

I'll be as kind as the TRAs as demonstrated by terfisaslur.com

But you want trans women (who, under your worldview, are male) to have to use male spaces? How is that safe/fair?

I'd personally like to see all loos being either single-cubicle or completely unisex. I do not have a good suggestion for hospitals, but I can see why transwomen wouldn't want to be on male wards.

How was it safe and fair for women to have men in their spaces? What did you do about that?

Do you see why women wouldn't want men on their hospital wards? Especially the ones who were raped and assaulted?

Why all this concern for only the men? And how is this women's problem, what answer do you want to hear here?

TW can not want to be on male wards all they like. They’re male. It’s where they belong. The only criteria to being a TW is to be male. No female can be a TW.

I'm a teacher - the head of year 13 in a school. I have worked with multiple young people who have come out as either non binary or trans. They're is no doubt in my mind that transwomen are women, and vice versa. If you think it's made up, I think you don't know anyone who is trans or non binary. That's on you, but if you're relying on the media for your information, it isn't helping to to understand.

Transwomen are men both in fact and in law (as confirmed by the supreme court)

You are head of year 13 in a school and you think being male is a "worldview".

That explains a lot @Issorryreallythehardestword

Why the concern? Because i think it's important to be an ally to people who need it. I'm astonished at the level of anti trans feeling on these pages, and i get the feeling that a lot of people don't think that being trans is 'real'. It is real. No one is trans so they can do crime. Some MEN might pretend to be trans, maybe (although I've personally seen no evidence of this). But transmen are made to suffer as a result.

@Issorryreallythehardestword

Do you really believe the person pictured below is a lesbian woman?

How about Karen White? Katie Dolotowski? Isla Bryson?

The TiM neighbour of mine who walks in the middle of the road screaming misogynist abuse and threats at any woman who tries to get her car around him, and is obviously unstable?

You're welcome to perceive however you like. I suspect there is a very large population beyond your children, and it is not sadly all and only about them. And even so, I wish you had half the passion for the rights and identities and futures of the girls you care for as you do for this group.

You know multiple trans and non binary children? That’s odd in itself considering 1.7% of the whole population identify this way. Interesting again that we are back on TWAW when the subject of the thread was about trans
men.

No, it's about capacity to have equal concern for women and girls. Equality of care and compassion.

And it's the law. Arguments like yours are precisely why women and girls must have rock solid cast iron protections in law: because we live in a patriarchy, which does not value women, and currently the modern sexism is that 'nice' girls would surrender their rights and live their lives enabling male people to their own detriment.

Here's the thing.

If you can't see sex, you can tell if someone is being discriminated against.

There are situations where this is really very relevant. Say for example a transwoman is being treated more favourably in the workplace and is paid better.

So yes I do think it's important to be able to see sex.

I do. I've worked with three non binary kids and two trans kids. Both the trans kids transitioned (socially) to living as their preferred gender during sixth form. One of the three non binary kids transitioned after A Levels, the other two are happily nonbinary, one is gay, one is not. My job is look after ALL the kids in my care, and I take that seriously. Everyone is equal, and everyone deserves respect.

"It's okay to discriminate based on appearance because they "chose" to look like this ?"

As a trans man who barely passes: yes, absolutely. The comfort, and sometimes the mental health of several women, trump mine. Especially in cases like refuges, rape centers, therapy sessions, and so on. We trans men make the choice to make ourselves look as much as possible exactly like the predators of untold numbers of women; it's on us to deal with the consequences. Many of us understand that, and wouldn't want to so much as take the risk of hurting a woman by showing up in places where we could do damage. We were, after all, socialised as women and taught to have empathy for others, and that not everything is about us.

So you are actively supportive of teaching regressive gender stereotypes which reinforce discrimination on the basis of sex.

As a teacher.

Goodie.

Being a man is not a protected characteristic within the Equalites Act as being a woman is.

So why can’t Transmen use men’s toilets? They are not a threat to men.

If you had a transgirl using the girls changing room and one of the girls objected to changing with them what would be your response

Then with respect, how do you support and respect the girls to say no to sharing space for example showers or changing rooms with boys? Would they feel able to say such things to you? Would they dare have boundaries?

What about the girls who until the 16th, might have endured a forced strip search by a male police officer who felt entitled to handle her body regardless of her feelings because it validated his identity? What about the girls of yours who will grow up needing refuges and rape crises services, would you support them in their trauma to ask for a space of their own that is accessible to them, as for example Sarah Summers is having to do? What about the girls in your care who will grow up to be lesbians, would you support them to say they exclusively are sexually attracted to biological women and be proud of that identity?