Trans men using female spaces

[GoldenGate]

Not seen a thread about this. Just saw a clip of the wonderful Hannah and Jake Graf on Lorraine. Usual oh we're so scared where to pee and its not fair what the SC ruling and EHRC have done. However what stood out was Jake stating she's not allowed to use mens loos (right) and also not allowed to use the female because she is a trans man. Is the second of those actually right? It would be terribly contradictory to biological sex. I get they could be excluded from eg. womens counselling sessions if their male appearance would be an issue, but surely not loos/changing rooms except the angle men could just pretend to be trans men.

On my reading, Sex Matters is saying that any provider can exclude "women who look convincingly like men" from the women's toilets, and seems to come close to implying that this would be the right thing for providers in general to do. But anyone can read it and decide for themselves on the precise interpretation, rather than rely on what I might be implying that someone else is implying:

"Is the Supreme Court forcing a person who has taken extreme steps to look like a man to use the ladies’ toilets or saying that they have a right to?
The answer is no. Women who look convincingly like men and who go into the women’s toilets are likely to be just as alarming to women as actual men. They would have to explain themselves, providing personal information that they might not want to share (and that other people might not want to know).
Therefore it may not be practically possible for some trans-identifying women to use the ladies’ toilets."

The EHRC guidance is vaguer - "in some circumstances the law also allows trans women (biological men) not to be permitted to use the men’s facilities, and trans men (biological woman) not to be permitted to use the women’s facilities"

The Sex Matters guidance is not a substitute for the actual law which makes it clear that transmen may be excluded from single sex spaces if proportionate but they don't have to be.

"proportionate"

This bit is where guidance /future case law etc I guess is needed..

The judgement has reasserted the EA, which doesn't apply equally to men and women. For obvious reasons.

Transmen just aren't such a big problem as transwomen, overall. They don't have the male offending profile, they don't have penises, they don't present the threat males do to women.

They do need loos rather than urinals and they often need sanitary bins etc.

So it could be that we do need to find different accommodations for transmen than for transwomen. People trying to pass as the opposite sex does cause issues.

I agree. Excluding a women who is indistinguishable from a man from a female rape therapy group would, I believe, be proportionate. Excluding a woman from an all female shortlist possibly not.

Which is better than the prior situation where males were allowed access to female spaces just by saying the magic words "I'm a woman". Now males cannot have any possible excuse to be there apart from nefarious reasons.

virtually no transwomen truly pass.

How do you know? You could walk past them all the time and not realise.

There is no issue if someone is born female they use the female toilets, if they are born male they use the male toilets. It is not possible to change from male to female or vice versa - that is quite clear now in the SC judgment as far as I can see (unless I have missed something or totally misinterpreted it.) These sort of interviews in my view aim at confusing the public deliberately.

It doesn’t count as ‘passing’ just because nobody points it out.

I personally don’t feel the need to shout out ‘you’re a man’ any time I see a man obviously trying to look like a woman. If he’s mooching around the supermarket minding his own business then he’s just living his life. If he’s in a women’s space then I would feel justified in challenging him.

I don't think we are doing anyone a favour by minimising this, first because it is difficult and second because its an issue that is seen to be difficult by many and so if we try and brush it under the carpet it will back fire
There are solutions - but these will not be the provision of only single sex spaces. I think we have, for example, won the argument on shared open spaces with cubicles - but I think we have to compromise on using the same room that has a floor to ceiling lockable door with a sink inside as men in some places.

They cannot be left with no facilities, I think
practically speaking what will happen is they will use the accessible toilet, and because there are relatively small numbers it won’t make a huge difference to the people who actually need the accessible toilet, goodness knows I’ve had to use them enough times for the baby change.

So basically if you are a trans man, it's better that you DON'T pass... Because this means less problems for you.

Exactly.

I dont think its helpful to focus this discussion on toilets, the place where it is more of an issue is hospital wards. Hospitals will have to find solutions, which will likely be ward of biological sex. Where it will be a whole lot easier is breastfeeding groups. No need for any biological men there.

Nah, we've already been assured by TRAs that no man would pretend to be trans, that's why we didn't have to worry about men using womens loos when transwomen were let in, remember? Surely that hasn't just changed to suit the TRA argument??

Congratulations. You just discovered the TRA modus operandi where every answer gives the most persecuted response regardless of whether it completely contradicts what was said 5 minutes ago or whether it's complete nonsense.

I'm not sure if you're being ignorant or deliberately rude here, but misgendering trans people (deliberately?) like this really isn't a good look.

So you'd be completely happy for a trans man to use female toilets, no matter how embarrassing that would be for him?

There's a third option along with "ignorant " and "deliberately rude" and it is truthful

No - pronouns are very much the choice of the person they apply to. You should listen and act accordingly. Don't you know any non binary period who use 'they'? I find that hard to believe!

Oh should I?

No I don't know any non binary periods.

Correctly sexing is fine.

Genderism is sexism.

We don't have to validate lies.

They can apply them to themselves then.

We don't have to agree with them.

I'm baffled by a lot of the arguments on this thread.
It's okay to discriminate based on appearance because they "chose" to look like this ? Then I guess it's okay to discriminate against migrants cos they "chose to come here", and against muslims because they "chose to be muslims".

Transwomen are men whatever they look like but somehow transmen are not women because...? They "don't pass" but someone could be upset by their appearance somehow ? Either they do look like men, or they don't.

A little bit of consistancy rather than picking and choosing based on what suits you at any given time would go a long way.

No. I get to choose the words I use