In the gender wars, it’s men’s turn to be kind

[Igneococcus]

Janice Turner in the Times:
https://www.thetimes.com/article/436927d0-e156-419a-966b-a1d1e449ec29?shareToken=d7b1877ad2d8a14529e02a6d7e1f7d53

Thanks for that Ig.

You would think that men had actually been nasty to the transwomen, which isn't the case.
Men are just not that bothered about this and its the trans lobby that is making it out to be that men have forcibly removed them from male spaces.

I agree with that. It's never been about safety, the aim was and is validation.

Totally agree. I had a post about this recently saying we need a new wave of trans allies: basically blokes that welcomed trans identifying blokes back into their single sex spaces and categories. Lots of replies from DHs and partners who said ‘what’s the big deal, of course they should pee with us’. This should never have been a women’s problem. It’s definitely time for the men to stand up and take responsibility for their own across the board.

Is there any UK data showing transwomen have been assaulted in men's spaces? I've never seen any. There's very little hard evidence of workplace discrimination- I looked for employment tribunals where a trans person has alleged discrimination and only found 4, 2 of which were successful (1 of which was essentially a company computer system not updating a name change)

Excellent article from Janice as always, thankyou Igneococcus. I will be showing that to my teen (GC) daughter, who is having a hard time with her trans-supporting friends atm

It will be interesting to see if the internet is flooded with either sobbing videos of transwomen that are sat in cars wailing about how they have just been "abused" by men in the toilets or faked videos of them being abused.

Although they are likely to get verbally abused if they start filming in the toilets.

That’s an incredibly sensible article.

Lots of "but post-op transwoman??? What about them???" in the comments. There has been a whole cohort of Times readers popping up in the comments recently that paid no attention to this issue until the ruling.

It's a crucial time now and we need men to step up and take this on.

Men have been criminal in their silence.

They need to take this fight on and do as the article suggests.

On the back of @Barearse's post the other day I did my own small survey of the men in my life (1 DP, ds1(29), ds2 (17)) and asked what their reaction would be if a TIM went into the men's loos.

"I don't care, so long as they don't act weird in there"
"So long as they follow 'the rules', same as any other bloke"
"Yeah it's fine. No-one really cares"

So based on that, it seems that there doesn't even need to be a campaign for men to 'Be Kind'. Most men are the same- TIM or not, so long as they don't look at another man's penis or stand at the urinal next to them if there's a spare one next-door-but-one, they just Don't Care.

TIMs have nothing to fear. (apart from some olfactory assault probably. They could use their energy to campaign for better conditions in the men's loos)

What an absolutely brilliant article. Janice has been an absolute stalwart In the gender wars. Can you even begin to imagine an article like this in a national paper before the judgement. For Women Scotland you are absolute heroes.

Thanks for the share @Igneococcus - Janice is such a clear writer.

And yes, @southbiscay, you’re right, and I almost didn’t notice - what a sea change to have an article that spells things out so clearly in a mainstream paper.

Actually, other than a couple of deletions of people being really nasty, I haven’t seen many posts deleted on here in recent days - and people have been being very frank with their opinions. Wow, things have completely changed in just over a week.

(When I feel safe to just say to any old badger in public that TW are not W, then I’ll know the tide is completely turned. Not quite there yet…)

There does need to be a campaign though from a strategy perspective

#istandtopeewithyou ought to start trending.

Men need to “do better” and “be kind” and actually work towards a society that does not tolerate (or expect) violence towards others, just because they can. This will benefit women, children and other men. This is how a society becomes more tolerant. It’s a massive undertaking but at some point the work needs to be done.

This is a chance for men to step up, listen and do something positive.

I agree that this is largely a problem to be solved in the manosphere (I knew it had to be some use eventually)

It’s weird isn’t it. Nobody seemed worried about the young women (who really don’t pass as men) using the male facilities.

Archive

https://archive.ph/deLIl

JT writes concisely and powerfully and I admire her skill every time I read her.

The only substantial disappointment and disagreement that I have had was Re: the pronouns and calling women who dissented ‘Ultras’.

I'm very tempted to get back into commenting in the Times, now the "lots of places like small cafes, only have one toilet, what's the problem?" is making a reappearance. Also, people happily giving away disabled toilets for use of anyone who fancies, grrr.

Thought this seemed relevant

'Women don't object'. 'Women don't mind'.

That's two very public comments along those lines in as many days from these men. The first from 'Cleo Madeleine' on the BBC R4 programme yesterday about his being on a women's hospital ward and now this bloke.

Have we got any songwriters here? It strikes me as the start of a good chorus for a song about male entertitlement.

They have absolutely no idea about how very male this behaviour is. Or do they?

A sticker campaign in men's toilets, saying TRANS WOMEN WELCOME HERE
would be a thing, wouldn't it?

Someone’s put the notorious “women be kind” poster on another thread. They should be repurposed for the men’s toilets. Along with reminders that assault is a crime punishable with fines or a prison sentence.

But yes, let the male allies start stickering the gents with “This is a safe space for transwomen”.

I absolutely loved this article, it’s one of the best commentary pieces I’ve read actually. Janice Turner is a heroine.

Sticker woman needs to be activated!!