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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions
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thenoisiesttermagant · 26/04/2025 09:30

Micaela64 · 26/04/2025 09:20

Cis women have always been allowed to use mixed space services

No, many women can't and self exclude from public life rather than use mixed sex facilities, which is why we have sex segregated toilets in the first .place.

Do keep up.

What about Muslim or other religious women who are prohibited by their religion from using mixed sex (whatever they're labelled)? Or is it entirely about men's wants?

However, at the very least now it'll be nice and clear when a space is mixed sex because labelling it 'woman's' and then allowing any men in is very clearly illegal. And women will be able to speak up about companies breaking the law without fear of being branded a bigot.

And we all know WHY TRAs never, ever pushed for fully mixed-sex and clearly labelled as so toilets. Because the deception is the way you use unconsenting women who would otherwise make the choice to self exclude from that space.

Personally I'd rather use a mixed sex toilet (if on my own without children) than a mixed sex by stealth labelled 'woman's'. The former will likely contain men who aren't hell bent on ignoring women's consent, after all, alongside the ones determine to ignore women's hard 'no', the latter only men who don't think women's consent matters.

myplace · 26/04/2025 09:31

ButterflyHatched may be less shocked and scared by this ruling, had he listened to women and their concerns over the last decade. When we don’t listen and accommodate him in the way he wishes ‘hate has won’. Yet he didn’t accommodate or listen to us. Was that also hate? Or is hate only ever one way?

PerkingFaintly · 26/04/2025 09:31

These interim guidelines are very short, clear, and easy to read.

Repeat of the direct link from @EmpressaurusKitty :
www.equalityhumanrights.com/media-centre/interim-update-practical-implications-uk-supreme-court-judgment

There doesn't seem much point spending energy haggling about stuff which turns out to be misunderstandings, or incomplete quotations where the next line of the report is explicit and clarifies them.

theilltemperedqueenofspacetime · 26/04/2025 09:32

Micaela64 · 26/04/2025 09:20

Cis women have always been allowed to use mixed space services

women have always been allowed to use mixed space services

No, women have been forced to use mixed space services, even if traumatised by sexual violence or forbidden by their religion.

And the only alternative was to stay at home.

KatieAlcock · 26/04/2025 09:32

IwantToRetire · 26/04/2025 01:26

Membership of an association of 25 or more people can be limited to men only or women only and can be limited to people who each have two protected characteristics.

It can be, for example, for gay men only or lesbian women only. A women-only or lesbian-only association should not admit trans women (biological men), and a men-only or gay men-only association should not admit trans men (biological women).

This sounds good, but wasn't there previous guidance that associations of a smaller number (xx?) could basically say our association is only for whoever they wanted to limit it to.

Because this guideline of 25 or more (whether new or a clarification of existing guidelines) clearly means that lesbian bars, or holidays or whatever are totally within their rights to hold lesbian only events.

Or even a women's conference of many hundreds, if it is organised by an association?

This is an existing definition of an association. Under that limit, it can be said to be a friendship group.
I think lesbian only holidays, bars etc. would be under services because you pay for them.
So, the women's cycling club that tried to chuck me out for my beliefs (but it turned out it was the leader having a tantrum) was large enough not to be a friendship group. And it shouldn't have any more male members, unless it becomes totally mixed.
So is the book group (mixed sex) where one member left to 'keep herself safe" after reading my X feed.

Brainworm · 26/04/2025 09:32

Helleofabore · 26/04/2025 07:10

Sorry brainworm. I went into a whole lot of detail so that I could explain my thinking but it wasn’t that I didn’t think you knew this already.

Thanks @HelleofaboreI found it helpful to understand your thinking.

Being afforded privacy and dignity are human rights, so I think gender neutral provision that is founded on this basis will meet the legitimate aim requirement. If no-one else is excluded from using the provision, then I can’t see how any unequal claim could succeed.

I don’t think of privacy and dignity as being ‘from’ something (e.g. from males). I understand privacy to relate to the right to keep aspects of our lives and bodies private. Dignity is often linked to maintaining privacy and preserving someone’s dignity can involve upholding their privacy.

Most schools I work in have lots of single sex bathrooms and one gender neutral bathroom. This isn’t tricky. When it comes to changing rooms and overnight accommodation, individual solutions are put in place. These solutions are thought of as reasonable adjustments, which aligns with the PC of disability. These children have gender dysphoria and mental health needs.

This discussion brings me back to the harm the TRAs did in insisting that the trans umbrella included individuals that did not have a diagnosis of gender dysphoria and that GD is not a disability.

KatieAlcock · 26/04/2025 09:38

IwantToRetire · 26/04/2025 03:01

At the same time, I'm going to be mourning the losses of spaces for women and trans women which I've enjoyed over the years.

You just dont use the word woman or the word sex.

I am sure someone can come up with something like feminine gender identity.

The court case was abut the definition of the word sex in the Equality Act.

Gender identity is not a protected characteristic so you can't provide a facility for only people with that characteristic. If you do you are discriminating against men who don't have "feminine gender identity".

thenoisiesttermagant · 26/04/2025 09:40

I do agree side rooms should be prioritised on clinical need. It's fantastic if senior doctors are considering this and there's some pushback. Let's have a long, long debate about it. With lots of transwomen being given airtime.

Wes S has said this is a possible solution to keeping all men off women's ward - essentially to give transwomen a better deal.

The point is, even when this clearly unfair suggestion - prioritising transwomen over clinical need - is brought up which any normal person would think gives transwomen better treatment on the NHS they have mantrums.

BECAUSE ACCESS TO UNCONSENTING WOMEN IS WHAT THEY WANT. Not safe spaces, not even preferential treatment. Don't get safer than a private room! The WHOLE POINT is ignoring women's consent, and treating biological woman as a resource for them to use for validation, at best.

I just thought it was hilarious the bloke who was arguing for transwomen to be housed with the women trying to explain why having their own private rooms is somehow discrimination and 'most marginalised' when anyone who's ever been on an NHS ward is going 'what? I'd bloody LOVE a private room, why the hell wouldn't you want that?' then hopefully goes away and reads what women have been saying for a decade and then says 'Oh, I get it now'. It was a wonderful Operation Let Them Speak moment.

I just hope this is discussed lots and lots.

The obvious answer is a cordoned off private section of the men's ward, for what it's worth.

Rememberwhatthedoorknobsaid · 26/04/2025 09:41

Can someone more informed than me please clarify whether the guidelines apply to a post-surgery transwoman? I cannot get a clear answer from google.

JasmineAllen · 26/04/2025 09:42

Rememberwhatthedoorknobsaid · 26/04/2025 09:41

Can someone more informed than me please clarify whether the guidelines apply to a post-surgery transwoman? I cannot get a clear answer from google.

The guidelines apply to ALL trans men or women, irrespective of surgery, GRC etc

Overthebow · 26/04/2025 09:44

Rememberwhatthedoorknobsaid · 26/04/2025 09:41

Can someone more informed than me please clarify whether the guidelines apply to a post-surgery transwoman? I cannot get a clear answer from google.

Yes it does. All trans women are biological men, regardless of surgery.

Rememberwhatthedoorknobsaid · 26/04/2025 09:44

JasmineAllen · 26/04/2025 09:42

The guidelines apply to ALL trans men or women, irrespective of surgery, GRC etc

Thank you

cocoromo · 26/04/2025 09:46

OakleyAnnie · 25/04/2025 22:58

“Except where each toilet is in a separate room lockable from the inside “
isn’t that an exact description of every single toilet cubicle?

No you are confusing toilet cubicle ( multiple toilets in one room) and a self contained room that is a toilet area. Very different.

DrSpartacularsMagnificentOctopus · 26/04/2025 09:49

To correct something written above (that I'm too lazy to go back and find and quote), one of the very clear results of the SC judgement was that GRC status is irrelevant in the protected characteristic of "gender reassignment", as the judges rightly pointed out that you can't have a two tier protected characteristic, where some have different rights within that PC to others.

literallyarabbit · 26/04/2025 09:54

Thank you so much for sharing this. Such a relief this has been published, Am thankful the EHRC for being so prepared for this. Still appalled it ever even came to this, but hopefully, this is the end of it. Am I correct to believe the Supreme Court decision cannot be appealed?

What I love most is the simple and 100% clear wording throughout. It is pulling no punches that all trans women are men, and no amount of hormones, surgery, a GRC changes this. Is it not showing respect or treating TW (and TM for that matter) with dignity to be truthful in this respect. Lies (and feelings) are far more harmful than simple scientific fact. Indeed, it's the latter that's helped cause this mess. And besides, and as another poster pointed out, when have (some) of them ever treated women and their fellow men with respect. and dignity. Women in particular have suffered with not just their vitriol, but with gaslighting, (threats of and actual) violence, and had our own dignity and respect trampled on left right and centre.

Was awake at silly o'clock, so read the Reddit thread. The sheer arrogance of them to think they know better, particularly in terms of biology. As ever, there's not a single piece of scientific fact to back any of their bullshit up, something so many of us have. Earlier on this thread, I read these two points:

I was thinking how on earth did this movement convince anyone of anything?
And then I remembered my old flatmate's saying
"Bullshit Baffles Brains"
Says it all really. Hopefully the bullshit will be fading off and we will end up with a common sense fair position asap

and

Also, you can't reason someone out of position they didn't arrive at using reason.

So true! Thank you to the posters who wrote this. Copied and pasted it earlier to use at a later date!

Thank you again. We did this! We made this happen!

cocoromo · 26/04/2025 09:56

ButterflyHatched · 26/04/2025 01:47

I'm in the same situation. I couldn't even pass as male if I tried. It is incredibly unsafe for me to use male facilities, not to mention a direct breach of my right to privacy under the GRA. The incomplete interim guidance appears to be stating that I can't use male facilities anyway due to the discomfort it'll cause men to have an obvious woman in there with them.

I transitioned as a child, assimilated and built a life; a career. Everything I've ever known - the entire last 25 years of my adult life - all undone.

I've lived alongside you. Laughed, loved and cried alongside you. Shared moments of elation and despair. What the fuck else can I do? It's who I am - who I have always been.

It's all gone now. Written out of existence and consigned to legal limbo.

I'm not a criminal. I'm not going to break the law. That's not who I am. I don't see how I can even exist in public or my own workplace now, however, under practical circumstances.

To all those celebrating: Well done. Your hate won in the end.

Many people can and have empathised with your situation but, unfortunately it has all been for taken too far and this is now the consequence for all TW.
You would be better off directing your comments to TRA and Stonewall ect who created the pushback from basically taking the piss for the last 10+ years, and organising/ campaign for a third space where your need can be met, without infringing on women’s rights as was always the case by law.

EweSurname · 26/04/2025 09:56

It does make the GRC redundant then doesn’t it. If you have one, legally you aren’t able to access single sex spaces when you are not of that sex, but at the same time, the government has issued you with documents to say you are of that sex.

How would an organisation deal with that, if they didn’t already have prior knowledge that someone was trans (and so knew what was legally required)? If a trans person presents an organisation, either as a customer or
staff member, with a passport or birth certificate that has been altered and does not disclose they are trans, they will obviously be directed to use the Equality-Act-incorrect but only-available-knowledge-correct space.

andtheworldrollson · 26/04/2025 09:58

Hate? Why is it hate to say that transwomen need space but it’s not women’s space ?

MissScarletInTheBallroom · 26/04/2025 09:59

Micaela64 · 26/04/2025 09:18

"Trans people must always use the toilets that coincide with their biological sex" would be clear. It's not at all clear why it also says they can also be banned from peeing in toilets that coincide with their biological sex, unless the purpose of that is only to make trans people's lives more difficult?

It is a possible consequence, not the purpose.

Try to see it like this.

The decision of the Supreme Court, which has been summarised in the EHRC interim guidance, is that we do not make law and public policy based solely on what is best for trans people.

Trans people are a tiny minority in society, and whilst minorities can and should be protected, and in certain circumstances need and deserve greater protection than the majority due to their particular characteristics, it is neither reasonable nor proportionate to compromise the rights, safety and dignity of women (who are genuinely vulnerable) on the grounds that we cannot possibly compromise the rights, safety or dignity of a tiny number of trans people, most of whom are male. (Yes I know the fastest growing cohort of trans identifying people are teenage girls and young women, and I am pretty sure that most of them are not in fact using men's toilets. Hopefully this political turning point will be enough to convince them that maybe it's better to just accept that they are women.)

Law and public policy are frequently made on utilitarian principles. We cannot please all of the people all of the time so law and policy should aim to achieve the greatest good for the greatest number of people. This is not an absolute principle; to a certain extent any provision for minorities is a departure from it. But it is absolutely ludicrous that the political drive to protect trans people has led to a situation where the female half of the population were treated as though they did not exist at all, either as a recognised category in law or in terms of the consideration they were given. The actual law does in fact take a much more utilitarian approach to balancing the rights of women and trans people, and all that is happening at the moment is that the Supreme Court has confirmed that and society is going to have to make some changes as a result.

TLDR: not everything is about trans people. It is possible to tell trans people that they cannot have everything they want, without the purpose of that being to make trans people's lives more difficult. Sometimes it is about correcting an imbalance.

I also wonder whether the Equality and Human Rights Commission might have been a little more sensitive in its drafting of this guidance were it not for the fact that trans activists staged a dirty protest on their front steps last year. That was never going to win the hearts and minds of the people responsible for ensuring that your human rights are adequately protected, really, was it?

KilkennyCats · 26/04/2025 10:00

frenchnoodle · 26/04/2025 09:04

It's very clear.... It just doesn't say what you want it to.

Pretending not to understand will only get you so far

Absolutely.
The wailings of “but it doesn’t make any sense” are not making certain people look particularly intelligent right now.

JasmineAllen · 26/04/2025 10:00

EweSurname · 26/04/2025 09:56

It does make the GRC redundant then doesn’t it. If you have one, legally you aren’t able to access single sex spaces when you are not of that sex, but at the same time, the government has issued you with documents to say you are of that sex.

How would an organisation deal with that, if they didn’t already have prior knowledge that someone was trans (and so knew what was legally required)? If a trans person presents an organisation, either as a customer or
staff member, with a passport or birth certificate that has been altered and does not disclose they are trans, they will obviously be directed to use the Equality-Act-incorrect but only-available-knowledge-correct space.

The GRC is to cover legal things eg passport, drivers license, marriage etc so no, it's not redundant.

It wasn't intended as a magic ticket so the holder could access single sex spaces.

selffellatingouroborosofhate · 26/04/2025 10:01

thenoisiesttermagant · 26/04/2025 02:04

Listening to Anti-Social there's a bloke, Cleo, who gets awfully close to making it crystal clear that it's not the 'spaces' that are the issue but the unconsenting women in them. He's all fed up he's going to get a private room on the NHS and Bev Jackson keeps saying that a private room is nicer! Surely everyone wants a private room? Right? Well not if you want a supply of unconsenting women. Being in a nice, safe, private room isn't any good for access to unconsenting women is it?

I hope there is a lot of talk about how upset transwomen are that they're going to get nice, safe private rooms on the NHS because it's going to make the Isla Bryson, Dr Upton and piss protest peakings look really tame in comparison.

These men should be on the men's open ward unless they have clinical need for a side room. I'm autistic and really struggle with other people being around, yet I rightly have to suck it up on an open ward.

Side rooms are for people who are immuno-compromised, such as organ recipients, or carry infectious diseases. An organ recipient is at much greater risk of infection on an open ward than in a side room.

theilltemperedqueenofspacetime · 26/04/2025 10:03

EweSurname · 26/04/2025 09:56

It does make the GRC redundant then doesn’t it. If you have one, legally you aren’t able to access single sex spaces when you are not of that sex, but at the same time, the government has issued you with documents to say you are of that sex.

How would an organisation deal with that, if they didn’t already have prior knowledge that someone was trans (and so knew what was legally required)? If a trans person presents an organisation, either as a customer or
staff member, with a passport or birth certificate that has been altered and does not disclose they are trans, they will obviously be directed to use the Equality-Act-incorrect but only-available-knowledge-correct space.

Well, there's the evidence of your own eyes (and the ruling cleverly covers this with their point about the exemption for perceptive sex-discrimination). Employers can require medicals, ask questions about birth sex. It's private, not secret.

MissScarletInTheBallroom · 26/04/2025 10:03

selffellatingouroborosofhate · 26/04/2025 10:01

These men should be on the men's open ward unless they have clinical need for a side room. I'm autistic and really struggle with other people being around, yet I rightly have to suck it up on an open ward.

Side rooms are for people who are immuno-compromised, such as organ recipients, or carry infectious diseases. An organ recipient is at much greater risk of infection on an open ward than in a side room.

Agree. I understand the Supreme Court judgment is a blow, but anyone looking at this with any degree of objectivity can see that trans people are still going to be pandered to, just less than before.

EweSurname · 26/04/2025 10:04

JasmineAllen · 26/04/2025 10:00

The GRC is to cover legal things eg passport, drivers license, marriage etc so no, it's not redundant.

It wasn't intended as a magic ticket so the holder could access single sex spaces.

But how would you keep a space single sex in practice if someone has ID saying they are of that sex and doesn’t tell you they’re trans?

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