Anyone else also tired of the protests trying to focus only on toilets?

[NextRinny]

Bring on the talks of sports, prisons, rape centres, refuges and hospital wards. With focus on those providing care as well as receiving it, I say.

You can't have one without all the others.

But they just want to pee!!! And wash their hands 🙄

I agree. It is tiresome how the real issues are ignored.

It's prisons for me which I just can't see how you can possibly argue against the GC position. TW clearly exhibit male pattern offending and have no place in women's prisons.

I agree. They are trying to trivialise the debate by making it about toilets. They don't engage on the wider issues like men in women's sport.

DARVO and minimisation are key to their success to date.

That, no debate, and purposeful confusion with a side order of coercive control.

I don't care about toilets. I use the disabled one and most places I go seem to only have one, and it's unisex/disabled enclosed with a sink.

It's clear they're using that to make it seem like some terrible violation. Sport, refuges, prisons, hospitals...those are the places which women are needing to be bio female only space. As far as I'm concerned. And that is totally reasonable.

Talking about toilets makes the whole thing seem silly. Focus on places where people are exposed like communal changing rooms. Focus on spaces where people are vulnerable like hospital wards and prisons.

Focus on accurate data collection so we can accurately provision for individuals and watch for trends. We don’t want trans people to face discrimination. Without data that they are trans, it is impossible to watch for bias in housing, employment, health care, and education.

I agree. Public toilets is the least concerning area of all this.

I agree. As soon as the discussion switches to toilets I switch off.

If I want to talk about loos, I'd rather talk about the lack of disabled facilities.

At push, i'd talk about bladder leashes and long queues for the ladies.

Nauticant or sinnerboy dug up a Spartacus thread from 2016 (there may well have been earlier ones).

It’s notable that the topics mentioned here were mentioned then. Bar, possibly, data collection because who knew it would go so awry.

Sport is the one where the arguments in a way are the strongest. Safety and fairness, why someone born male should not compete in women's sports. So the case TRAs want to argue are the weakest if talking about sport.

Changing facilities could be enclosed, toilets and changing rooms unisex, and the numbers in prisons small compared to 51% of the population who are women.

I think toilets is an easy way of saying 'their basic rights are being taken away' because then the average person just thinks 'oh that's not okay to stop a trans person going for a wee' and they don't realise considering one of us as exactly the same as the opposite sex stretches to areas of intimate care, sports, prisons etc etc which would actually make them feel very differently if they knew.

I agree, it’s a lazy way to trivialise the whole issue of female only spaces. It allows endless cliches about who’ll police this, are you going to check people’s genitals, what about men who pass as women.

It’s quite canny, as everyone uses toilets, whereas not everyone has had to use other services, like support groups or maternity services. Hopefully by moving onto the bigger picture in discussions etc this endless diatribe can be shut down. Ultimately the social contract whereby men & women used the toilets for their sex has worked well for many years. Men breaking that contract doesn’t mean the system is unworkable, simply that they’re breaking the system.

Toilets maybe what people think are ‘least concerning’. I disagree. Obv sport, prisons , DV and rape centres, changing rooms etc are safety and critical areas which need single sex. However should young girls and women have to share toilets with men? No thank you. For hygiene and safety issues. School girls not drinking / going to the toilet because older boys are in there. Is that ok? No, no it’s not.

Here’s an example about the grimnesss of men in mixed toilets, from MN last year.

I think that the most severe infringement of women's rights has been Trans women trying to force their way into Lesbian dating sites, meetups, and Lesbian women-only social events, then campaigning to close these down when they are refused entry, claiming that the lesbians are bigots. Any lesbian saying they do not want to get involved with someone with male genitals risks being branded as transphobic.

Seeing posts from supposed trans women that lesbians should just accept 'girl dick because it's the same as a strap on' just always stank of corrective r*pe to me.

I agree. Women only toilets are absolutely essential for women’s safety and dignity. I’m frustrated by people trying to dismiss that they matter. No they are not the only issue as men are trying to takeover women’s spaces in all their forms but they’re just as important as the others.

They only focus on toilets in public as thats is their easiest argument ( though I do strongly believe in the importance of single sex toilets, let’s not pretend these don’t matter too. Girls in schools have had awful experiences thanks to mixed sex provision).

But in private, TRAs have focused very strongly on getting men into prisons, refuges, sexual abuse survivor services for women, any women only accommodation ( including holidays /retreats etc organized by and for women), changing room etc, lesbian dating sites and spaces and into positions of power and influence in any women’s organisation, so they can destroy it as a women only organisation.

So yes, the toilet thing has been a deliberate, deceptive distraction method.

I agree

in so many places we have mixed sex toilets without problems

and whilst I don’t think for a single moment that young women should have to wash blood stained clothing in front of men, it really isn’t the biggest issues which are being hidden behind the relatively small problems and deliberately chosen to belittle the female position

Yanbu I share your concern that there’s been no announcement about prisons which is clearly the most urgent change that needs to be made.

It will take time to create trans wings and move them people around but people who work in prisons must be eagerly awaiting this announcement too as it will make their work slightly easier.

It's because they might get people onside with it because it's a relatively small issue.
The public were having none of Isla Bryson and most people get the sports thing.
The bigger things have been done behind closed doors for a reason...

For me it's the whole lie.
Stop the pronouns, stop the change towards mixed sex loos, sports, wards etc. that the MRA/TRA say are based on 'gender'.
As gender doesn't exist, it's a manmade concept that some choose to follow.

Actually the toilets issue already does just exclude some women from having anywhere to pee or risking going into them, but since they're women no one cares.

Yes, there are very serious issues front and centre, hospital wards, searches, same sex HCPs, rape crisis and refuge services, prisons and absolutely they are the hill to die on, but the toilets issue isn't one that doesn't matter. Only in the sense that those women don't matter. And that women's spaces are not inclusive of all women once men are there.

It's another situation in which people faint in coils when it's suggested that men might be disadvantaged, but are fine with it happening to women. And makes clear that in fact all territory is mens, and women can only expect to fight and defend the most important corners of it.

I couldn't agree more. I'm fed up of the real issues being ignored. Toilets are the least of our worries. I'm more concerned about vulnerable women in hospitals, prisons etc. where we don't have any choice or advocacy. Could be any one of us. I genuinely prayed I didn't end up needing hospital care during this madness. We know sexual assaults in hospitals are rife.
Women need protection. And not only that, we deserve privacy and dignity. It's not all about physical threats.
I cannot believe the politicians responses and as a Scottish woman I am still waiting for an apology from sturgeon and co. Why on earth haven't they? They misinterpreted the law for a decade, illegally took away 'our' rights and put numerous women at risk in doing so.
I do actually feel sorry for genuine trans people who were quietly living their lives before the violent women hating TRA's came along and ruined it for them.

Single sex spaces are important, but what's closest to my heart is defending what is factual. Human sex is binary and immutable.

So yes, I don't like the relentless focus on where men want to pee, there is a matter of principle involved.

Agreed.

I can’t agree with the minimisation of how it can affect everyday life for some women and girls.

I am so disappointed in women who do not realise it is by the grace of their privilege that they feel able to 'be kind' with the single-sex spaces and protections so many other, less fortunate women, very much need. I've women in my acquaintance who say thing like, "What privilege? I have experienced assault by a man in a public place and it is precisely for this reason that I want women's spaces to include transwomen." This really isn't how to solve this puzzle though, and although not easily offended, this 'making-free-with-other-people's-rights' really does upset me.