Argument with younger family members

[CandidLurker]

I know there’s been a couple of threads but could do with thoughts/advice as to how to settle this in my mind.

At a family gathering yesterday someone brought up the SC decision. I knew exactly the reaction of two young women (both 20’s/very early 30’s) in the family so I tried not to say anytthing.

However, one did argue it from the point of view that this is an oppressed minority and it’s treating them like gay men used to be treated which annoyed me because I don’t think it’s the same at all, then I said I agreed with the SC decision and oh my God the outrage….
….some of the things that were said….no trans people were consulted in the SC decision…trans women don’t have a physical advantage in sports because they can take puberty blockers during adolescence….one shouted at me “BUT THEY HAVE GRC’s” and almost spat out JK Rowling’s name like she is an evil bitch.

I’m kind of upset because these are 2 young privileged women with parents who have helped them overcome every possible difficulty in life they have yet encountered. They’ve probably never encountered sexism in the workplace to the extent I did starting work in a male dominated profession in the 80’s. They weren’t born during the AIDS crisis and have no knowledge/memory of the kind of institutional prejudice gay men encountered (eg not being able to be honest about being gay as then they couldn’t get life insurance which was a requirement for a mortgage in those days).

i feel like they hate me. It feels a bit like when you are a child and you are accused of something serious you haven’t done!

I don’t think trying to speak to them about it will achieve anything..

Any words of wisdom appreciated.

My daughter is exactly the same.

no advice, just sympathy.

we don’t talk about it.

she is 24 and has never worked. Autism and adhd.

Can‘t post much, but didn’t want to read and run. So sorry to hear this. I’ve been shocked by the backlash we’re seeing; it’s a really difficult time. It sounds like, in a difficult convo in which everyone said their piece, you approached it with a maturity and empathy the others didn’t show. You should be proud of that. It speaks volumes, and hopefully they will see that over time.

I assume you've known these young people a very long time and know who they are?
They don't hate you. They may be being taught to hate a fictitious terf. They won't realise there are more GC women around them than they realise.

I've did a full on flip flop from thinking it was good to making a polite pretence that we think people are the opposite sex to wondering if it's kinder to take a more honest line.

I used to think that men who wanted to be women were the most vulnerable and had agreed in discussions that they should be embraced in women only spaces. I hadn't considered what some of those spaces were of the many traumatic experiences of women. I had considered it from the point of view of a woman who'd had to be a certain way to navigate being in a mainly male industry, not acknowledging my own reality. Once I started acknowledging that and the reality of other women I could see it in a more rounded way.

When Germaine Greer said "I don't care!" I was terribly confused by how flippant that sounded, but also curious.

It took a long time for me to understand where GC women were coming from and I'm not sure I would have been prepared to get there ten years previously. Give them time and in the meantime, remember who they are.
Thinking that they hate you is buying into similar rhetoric of those that tell trans people that we don't want them to exist.

It’s awful isn’t it. My brother was there and agrees with me but probably wisely kept quiet. I said you could have backed me up and he just said he didn’t want to get into an argument. Which was probably the sensible thing. However I did feel like I was being attacked by both of them and they honestly spoke to me like I am evil personified!

No words of wisdom, but I hear you. Someone said on another thread that, in the 50 years since it was passed, the reasons for needing the Sex Discrimination Act seem to have been forgotten by those who did not live through them - and many of those who are hard of thinking. The SC ruling confirmed that we have not lost those rights (so is therefore a good thing). It also confirmed the (existing and extensive) rights under the EqA for transgender people (also a good thing). The lack of intellectual rigour applied to the situation from those who see the SC ruling as “removing rights” is depressing. If additional rights are needed, let’s be clear about what those are and discuss like adults who those can be provided without impinging on the hard-won rights of others.

You know what, if they want to believe total bollocks, let them. It won't change the law or what the supreme court said.

Getting people to change their minds when they've committed to something is really difficult. It's a slow and painful process. It literally involves rewiring pathways in the brain. You can lead a horse to water but you can't make it think.

I'm not having any free-range discussions about it so you're doing better than me.

It was an argument. You heard what they really think. A lot of people, especially but not only in their generation, feel the same. You're not going to fix that - as far as they are concerned, there's nothing to fix. You just have to sit with it. I do think think you're wrong. Crucially, neither does the highest court in the land.

My daughter has rejected me over my views and it only dawned on me last night that I may now have a chance to reach her, to understand why I have taken the line I have.

When she started university, some years ago, she admitted to me that young lesbians were not able to create lesbian groups or clubs without including young men who claimed they were women. This was enforced by the university rules. As a result, she tended not to mix with the “LGBTQ+” people, but found friends in other ways.

She has since started a relationship with a younger woman and her views changed, but I have not forgotten what she said back then, even though she now rejects me for being a bigot.

The recent ruling means that the university can no longer insist that young lesbians must accept young men if they want to create their own community. Moreover, this means that while those young men can be excluded, their trans men lesbian (ie same sex attracted) friends should be welcome.

Before the Supreme Court judgment, the Haldane judgment confirmed that women could never be guaranteed a space of their own that was truly single sex.

Alongside the self-ID laws Scotland brought in (which were only prevented from being enacted by Westminster) the Haldane ruling would have meant that any and all women’s groups would have been open to any man who chose to get a certificate and access them. Women would have had no recourse.

So now, those young lesbians have had their rights returned to them by women like me, working and campaigning alongside older lesbians who wanted a better world for their younger counterparts.

And even if my daughter cannot yet understand why I felt this was so important, I hope she will come to understand in time.

I do not think you're wrong. Fat fingers.

My son is Autistic/ADHD. His views are very strong the other way. For him ( 13 years old), trans ideology is absolute nonsense, confusing, it doesn't make biological sense and he hates that he has no clue why he's supposed to call a man in a dress a woman.

He's actually right. But my request to him is to soften it ever so slightly because I know he'll be ripped a new arsehole. I also don't like hatred and don't want this to translate into him saying something directly to someone that feels a bit like intimidating them. Especially if part of a collective group.

It's a minefield. He has a young relative insisting on being called a boy who he always knew as a girl ( she's a girl). He won't do it. This is the shit this movement has perpetuated.

I personally would call a close loved one what they asked ( not if it was my own child though who I would not encourage. Not that I need worry about that luckily).

My 16yo DS came out with similar. It was prompted by our local swimming pool changing the notices and allocation of toilets.

He said it was horrible that trans women weren't allowed to use the ladies loos any more.

I pointed out that the only reason trans women weren't happy using the men's loos was because they were treated with contempt and aggression by ordinary men, and perhaps men in general should learn to 'be kind' rather than expecting women to fix their problems all the time.

Haven't had a peep out of him since. 😁

I am not backing down on that, DS or not.

The younger generation are almost completely sucked into this transrights vortex and we have to agree to disagree. My dd 23 has returned for Easter despondent at this ruling and spouting all sorts of bile against JKR. She is very aware of male dominance in her industry but can’t see that this is about women’s rights too. She is bright, articulate, sensitive… I’m not going to argue with her about it when she comes home. I don’t think she will ever see the GC argument clearly. This is why we really needed this law to be clarified and thank goodness it has been.

I understand the fear people feel. A fear of oppression, harassment, bullying, intimidation and extreme harm. That fear would incite anger and extreme frustration, which is where I feel alot of be kind young people are coming from.

I however, have no accurate statistics regarding attacks and intimidating and bullying of trans people. I believe they do suffer this.

I am anti the trans movement and how it has been politicised ( if that's the right word). If I am served by my local trans shop assistant, I have no issues and if it's relevant will call them she as requested on their name badge, even though they're clearly a man.

I think a lot of autistic young people just don't feel right. They often feel rejected and don't know why. They can have terribly low self esteem that translates to feeling like they are bad people.

Thinking the right things is one way that they can reassure themselves. Our young people want to know that they come from good roots and have parents/family that have/had the right values. Less than ever young people in general are less able to take the rough with the smooth and have a broader sense of perspective.

If it comes up again, I would ask some gentle questions that don't suggest they are wrong.

'I worry about for example a rape support group, lots of women who have been assaulted are left terrified of men in the aftermath and might leave the group if they see a TW there, because they'll read them as male, shouldn't everyone have support that works for them?'

For you and OP, do you ever recall and explain all the injustices the trans ideology agenda has caused women and present them?

I can't to hand but have seen excellent examples on here that really hit home the harm to women on multiple levels with examples, and the harm to children with examples.

With this presented, I struggle to understand how any intelligent person can argue it.

It's being on MN and reading these threads that shifted my position completely from ' be kind' trans supporting to the complete opposite!

I'm sorry to hear this. Sympathies.

I'm reminded of a family gathering just couple of days after the Brexit referendum. Feelings were running very high, stuff was said and there was a massive row. It was very upsetting and painful at the time. I wondered how on earth we could see eachother again.

But after a period where I think we all retreated a bit and neither the subject nor the row was spoken of, it was fine. Just let the dust settle. It'll blow over.

I don’t understand how they can be so hateful about JK Rowling either! She’s a fellow woman supporting other women. You can disagree with her but why such vitriol. I honestly don’t get it. Is this just some huge generational chasm?

I'm just glad I had MN back when this was all kicking off and was forewarned enough to have sensible discussions with my kids over the years.

I have a DD at uni who is GC but has to be careful. I feel for her having to navigate being at uni through this.

My younger child asks the odd question, like why sex categories for pool competition. We chat sensibly and then I leave him to work out the obvious framing he had encountered and how people can then be convinced of anything.

I do feel for you. I don't know what the way back is once someone has been captured.

I think it's become shorthand for a particular political stance. It's easy. She's a safe person to be nasty about.

Helps to remind people of some of the positive work she's done. The money for MS research, the children's charity, the money for DV survivors, the fact that she is herself a DV survivor. It's very difficult for anyone to say helping people with MS is bad.

Hi OP.

I'm not quite sure what you're after from this thread.

Do you just want to let off steam? Are you just looking for some solidarity from people who don't think you're a bigot? Or do you actually want help refuting these points if they come up in conversation again?

If it's the former, most people here agree with you. Most people in society agree with you. I am sorry that you have to deal with people with such idiotic views in your family. I'm quite glad I don't really know anybody in that captured generation.

If it's the latter, here goes:

• Gay people never asked for anything except equal rights. They have never demanded anything which would have infringed the rights of other groups. In particular, gay men have never demanded access to women's single sex spaces. So no, it's not even remotely similar. And a lot of gay people do not agree with trans activists and welcome this decision. When I asked my lesbian colleague what she thought of the decision, her first word was, "Hurrah!"
• No individual trans people were consulted in the Supreme Court decision because the role of the Supreme Court judges is to decide on matters of law. The Supreme Court judges are the people with the most sophisticated understanding of the law. That is why they are Supreme Court judges. Why would they consult people who know a lot less about the law than they do in order to make their decision? They are also supposed to be impartial in their decision making, so giving significant weight to the opinions of people who are neither experts in the law nor neutral in their point of view would run contrary to that principle.
• The interests of trans people (a tiny minority) were represented by the taxpayer funded Scottish government with support from Amnesty International. The interests of women (half the population) were represented by a tiny grass roots campaign group consisting of three middle aged Scottish women, with support from a small women's rights charity and an even smaller LGB rights charity. It was David vs Goliath, but the pro trans lobby was Goliath, not David.
• Sports are not relevant to the Supreme Court decision and if they had read the judgment they would know that. Individual sporting bodies decide on their own criteria for trans participation in sports. If they are doing their jobs properly the criteria should be based on science, not politics. None of the trans identifying male athletes whose participation in women's sports has been so publicly controversial took puberty blockers because they all transitioned as adults. And frankly, even if a male person did take puberty blockers to avoid going through male puberty and therefore had no physical advantage over female athletes, it is vanishingly unlikely that they would be competing in sport at all because taking puberty blockers is incompatible with having a healthy body. They are more likely to be dealing with early onset osteoporosis than competing in the Olympics, so it is a completely moot point.
• The fact that someone holds a Gender Recognition Certificate (which most trans people do not) makes absolutely no difference to the rest of society. Their inclusion in spaces designed for members of the opposite sex is going to undermine the purpose of that single sex space just as much as if they did not have a Gender Recognition Certificate, because it is the impact of their presence on other people that matters, not their paperwork or legal status. None of the people in that space will even know whether they have a Gender Recognition Certificate or not, so what possible difference could it make?
• Saying that women are not entitled to single sex spaces and that needing such spaces makes them evil bigots is an opinion that can only come from extreme privilege. I am sure that making this point would be quite explosive, but I would have been tempted to point out that as two privileged young women who have had everything handed to them on a plate, they weren't there when real feminists were putting the hard graft in to ensure that they could benefit from equal rights, they're most likely never going to be locked up in jail with a male rapist who has decided that he identifies as a woman, or be turned away from a women's refuge or rape counselling service for needing a single sex space, they don't come from a religious minority where women's freedom is already severely restricted and for whom the lack of female only spaces excludes them from society still further, and they presumably don't require intimate care from healthcare workers. Their disregard and lack of solidarity for women in those situations is absolutely disgusting. They are not feminists, they are silly little idiots jumping on a fashionable bandwagon without a second thought for the women in society who genuinely are oppressed and marginalised.

What is their relationship to you and where were you when this conversation took place?

If it was at your house you would not have been unreasonable to say you won't be spoken to like that in your own home and ask them to leave.

Because they haven't listened to a word she has said and get their opinions from TikTok.

It's fear. And tribalism. And she's a middle-aged woman. So internalised misogyny.

Op I think sometimes age has it benefits, because we can see both sides of the argument. Your brother should have defended you though and your family members need to back off

I have an otherwise lovely niece who is also most upset by the judgment. She kept going on about how it was unfair and that her trans friends are lovely people. I’m afraid I was a bit blunt and told her that this is all very well for someone like her who is unlikely to ever be arrested and strip searched, or be made to share a cell with a rapist. Complete waste of energy of course. But I’ll ask her again in 10 years time