Argument with younger family members

[CandidLurker]

I know there’s been a couple of threads but could do with thoughts/advice as to how to settle this in my mind.

At a family gathering yesterday someone brought up the SC decision. I knew exactly the reaction of two young women (both 20’s/very early 30’s) in the family so I tried not to say anytthing.

However, one did argue it from the point of view that this is an oppressed minority and it’s treating them like gay men used to be treated which annoyed me because I don’t think it’s the same at all, then I said I agreed with the SC decision and oh my God the outrage….
….some of the things that were said….no trans people were consulted in the SC decision…trans women don’t have a physical advantage in sports because they can take puberty blockers during adolescence….one shouted at me “BUT THEY HAVE GRC’s” and almost spat out JK Rowling’s name like she is an evil bitch.

I’m kind of upset because these are 2 young privileged women with parents who have helped them overcome every possible difficulty in life they have yet encountered. They’ve probably never encountered sexism in the workplace to the extent I did starting work in a male dominated profession in the 80’s. They weren’t born during the AIDS crisis and have no knowledge/memory of the kind of institutional prejudice gay men encountered (eg not being able to be honest about being gay as then they couldn’t get life insurance which was a requirement for a mortgage in those days).

i feel like they hate me. It feels a bit like when you are a child and you are accused of something serious you haven’t done!

I don’t think trying to speak to them about it will achieve anything..

Any words of wisdom appreciated.

Indeed. And sometimes they are wrong. Sometimes the gate was there for a good reason. Sometimes in that passion to change the old they commit atrocities.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2016/may/11/the-cultural-revolution-50-years-on-all-you-need-to-know-about-chinas-political-convulsion

The best defence against extremism is age and experience. Once you've seen your first "Progressive" movement and realised somehow despite the shiny principles the same type of people still seemed to end up in charge and the same type of people still ended up cleaning toilets, and once you've had the privilege over time of getting to know and respect lots of different people from different backgrounds and yes, having the experience of people with views on which you disagree still behaving to others in ways you respect, it's a lot harder to be lead into extremist black and white thinking.

Which is, of course, why "progressive" movements are so ageist, because they need to make sure the perspective of people with actual life experience not just theories and slogans is delegitimised, ridiculed and rejected out of hand before anyone can listen to it properly.

Women with little experience yet of the entitlement and privilege of men are not the best people to decide whether "trans women" are just like women, and women with little experience yet of how their bodies will affect their life directly and through how others see them are not the best people to decide whether biology matters.

LucyMonth it’s not that trans=rapists it’s that transwoman = man. There’s a reason that this argument focuses on Transwomen rather than on Transmen.

There are of course violent, dangerous women in the world but statistically women are at risk, daily serious risk, from men.

For most societal purposes it doesn’t matter if you are a man or a woman.

But crucially best way to safeguard partially undressed or vulnerable women from violent dangerous men is to bar all men from certain public spaces.

Their clothes, their mode of presentation or inner feelings are entirely irrelevant. Nuance doesn’t matter. The only point of relevance with regard to access is that they are male.

My husband, father and son are wonderful, kind and non violent men. I still don’t think they should be allowed in women’s single sex spaces.

They weren’t forcing anything on anyone. Someone stupidly decided this was a good topic of conversation to bring up at a family gathering and they expressed their opinions, which are strong because they have trans friends.

In YOUR opinion their view point is wrong. Clearly they disagree. But that isn’t what this post is about. There is zero point in arguing whether these women are right or wrong in their views. For a start they aren’t here to express themselves. So what’s the point t in a load of strangers piling on?

The OP said she doesn’t feel there’s anything to be achieved by discussing it with them further so the sensible advice is…leave them to it and don’t discuss it further. If you don’t want them “forcing their opinion on others” then don’t “force your opinion on them” by rehashing it. Just agree to disagree and move on with your life.

Anyone who disagrees with the Supreme Court judgment either hasn't understood it (in which case they should read and understand it before mouthing off about it) or they believe that women who aren't comfortable sharing their spaces with men who believe they are women should put up and shut up. That's not OK. They don't get to decide what other women's boundaries are.

I’m not here to argue about trans rights or women’s rights. The OP asked what she should do about her nieces opinions.

They are just factually right to say that there ARE people who talk about trans”women” the way people have previously talked about gay men. As sexually perverted by default. You can see it on MN time and time again. YOU might not talk like that. OP might not talk like that. But people ARE talking like that.

But again…this thread isn’t or shouldn’t be a thread rehashing the same old women’s spaces arguments. There’s more than enough of them already and it’s largely just a load of like minded women agreeing with each other and hero worshipping JK Rowling, so it’s not really much of a nuanced or valuable discussion.

The thread is about what to with family members who have a different opinion to you. & my advice is let them have a different opinion to you.

Again…not the point of the thread.

The OPs relative disagree with you. You and the OP are just going to have to accept that, the same way they have to accept you disagree strongly with them.

The SC judgement went your way. Be glad about that. Accept other people aren’t. There is literally no other alternative because people are always going to disagree on this. Just like they will with abortion, politics, religion. The law has ruled in your favour so just rejoice and move on. Let other people be unhappy if that how they feel.

They can disagree all they like.

But their point of view is fundamentally misogynistic and anti democratic.

Nobody should let them get away with pretending that their views are in any way progressive.

I won’t deflect from the thread by asking for it Lucy but another time I would be interested to hear what specific nuance I’ve missed that would change the conversation.

(I’m not really the hero worshiping type, but I do think it’s reasonable to admire a person who has given millions upon millions to support poor and vulnerable women and children as well as funding medical research)

Sometimes it’s a good idea for families to avoid controversial discussions but I always think it’s sad if people are unable to have a non aggressive, non emotional debate about important topics.

The rule in our house is “make your case with logic and reason not with the volume of your voice and nasty slurs”.

Arguing with idiots is like playing chess with a pigeon. No matter how good you are, they'll just knock over the pieces, poop on the board, and strut around like they won.

I've had it twice in 10 days. First time with 2 good friends and I was stuck in a car with them exclaiming how awful it was.

Second time was at a Women's meeting and I was in a group with a transwoman and one of the women was expressing her solitary and how amazing stonewall was.

Both times I keep my mouth tightly closed whilst rolling my eyes. There are some people you cannot explain the truth to, they just don't want to hear it.

Frustrating but it will change.

Probably because Gen Z is more into the likes of Andrew Tate who tends to hate on everything LGBTQ.

@CandidLurker there are a few topics where you are best advised to keep your own counsel!!

Oh no - too late to edit the misspelling of 'practise'!
I have a reputation to keep up over in Pedantry Corner in the Bluestocking, you know.

Maybe if I don't draw attention to it nobody will notice..🤔

More tea, anyone? Can I press anyone to a Tunnocks Teacake?

To slightly defend myself I didn’t raise it as I knew it would be a controversial subject. However I did give my view when someone else raised it, when my brother, perhaps more wisely, decided to keep quiet, as all the anger was directed my way!

However I do agree with you that they feel and think how they feel and think, so one just has to move on.

I do generally try to stick to non controversial subjects and just ask them about what’s going on etc.

Adult women allowed their own opinions - yes. Of course.

Living in a different time - yes.

Different problems? Yes and no. Male violence and sexual abuse aren't new. The internet as a tool which men can use to abuse, yes, and we are nowhere near coming to grips with it.

Violent porn ubiquitous and normalised, yes. Although I would argue that surely this should have been a stark education for young women about the darker nature of desire in some men, and made them fight harder for female only spaces. It's hard to square the circle of knowing that men are hiding cameras in changing rooms and toilets with the belief that men pretending to be women need to be in female changing rooms for their own safety and wellbeing whilst at the same time being sure that men who are honest about their sex should be kept out because some men are a danger to women and it's impossible to tell which ones until after the fact.

Gay men being unfairly accused of being paedophiles if they want to be in roles where they have access to children - again, yes, although this belief took hold at a time when society had just been forced to look at the sex abuse scandals involving scout masters, priests, school masters at boys boarding schools, and men running children's homes. The boys were often disbelieved because they were boys. It didn't come from nowhere. We always have to exercise caution when it comes to vulnerable children. Decent adults are aware of this and accept it.

Agree that the topic is difficult to discuss. What is interesting is why it's so difficult, because we are all generally agreed on what the problem is.

Ah right, just dismiss everything with no evidence. You think a bunch of feminist 14-year-old girls at a girls’ school are into Andrew Tate, do you?

And if you like your labels, they are gen Alpha not gen Z (who are the very ones who are most into gender ideology).

Thisn thread highlights why transactivists have been so desperate to influence children in schools & the young in universities. So much of their "interest" has been self serving with the most vulnerable children being targeted first. Children in care were one of the first groups. Children in hospitals - imagine telling the most physically and mentally unwell children that their bodies are wrong but a sex change will fix them? Even the youngest of children in primary schools have been gaslit by this nonsense - far too young to have the intellectual understanding to critique what's told to them by supposedly responsible adults.

This is why an ideology lacking in all moral and intellectual credibility has been swallowed hook line and sinker by so many children and young people with limited life experiences to evaluate what they've been told. Add to that the climate of intimidation and bullying that's used to enforce this and it's not surprising we're seeing a generational divide. A student at Sussex university seeing Kathleen Stock be bullied out of there is unlikely to speak up against TWAW or men in women's sport.

So many adults are culpable for their behaviour in failing to challenge this gaslighting and intimidation of the young.

Perhaps the problems stemming from porn ought to make young women wonder if there is some connection between gender ideology and porn aimed at men, especially sissy, trans and anime genderqueer porn that produces these Andrea Long Chu type justifications of trans experience as fundamentally rooted in “kink” and pornography.

Funny that the only systematic feminist discipline of critical thought on porn comes from older, “second wave” feminism that these young women are being encouraged to dismiss.

It’s almost like it’s designed that way, isn’t it? That the kind of ideology that produces violent porn, also encourages young people to decry and reject the very movement that provided tools to give a critical distance on porn, patriarchy and the sexual oppression of women.

I have no compunction in saying that young women in particular are being had - being fleeced and deceived - by a brand of pseudo-progressivism that is not only intellectually incoherent, but is actively fraudulent and works against their own interests. I don’t mind telling them that, either. What men’s traditions encourage men to disavow older men and their male predecessors? They don’t. That’s what patriarchy is - adherence to the father, literal or metaphorical.

Yet young women have been hoodwinked into a pretend form of rights activism that encourages them to trash their own female and feminist tradition and (literal) mothers and (metaphorical) forebears. That’s anti-feminist in itself. I’ve found that gently pointing this out to young women often starts them thinking and sows productive seeds. Whose interest is it, in getting them to reject a female feminist tradition…?

@MissScarletInTheBallroom that's a very helpful overview of information to save on my phone!

💯

And for the children who are not in the care system it’s been crucial getting the parents to buy in through fear.

Just let me say it's not all down to age.
I'm 21 and I completely agree with the ruling!

Oh yes. I remember years back the Autism Support charity steering us to affirming my daughter's need to change gender. Daughter at the time was self harming and we were at our lowest point fearing she may take her own life. But i just knew this wasn't the answer and we resisted. Had she been in care or in a family home with different circumstances I am sure she would have become trans. If someone had said at 15/16 yes we can take your uterus and remove your breasts she would have gone along with it. At least now she can accept her female sex. She dresses in what I would call an androgynous style which is absolutely fine. She has online friends who have transitioned socially and medically with nearly all being female to male and so is fiercely protective of this community. She describes her self as ARORACE she/her (not that she has told us but I've seen it on her YouTube channel).

I really value talking about societal issues and it's difficult if you feel you have to dodge multiple relevant subjects. I really try be open to opposing views but I find people can get very angry to frothing at the mouth and I realise I have to stop and change the subject. I also feel I'm judged harshly by friends if I don't necessary agree with their world views.

It's a side note but I feel like this about the subject of suicide. If society spoke about it, accepted it, stop shitting themself at hearing the mere word, understood people feel desperate and some actually will want to do this - let people talk about it and I believe you'd actually help some people and reduce some of the hopelessness that leads to people ending it. ( Probably not lunchtime family chat topic with kids but.. 🤷‍♀️😊)

I won't discuss except here.
My answer to anyone's outrage or celebrations about the SC statement is "yes,it is great the law is clarified and now we all know where we are with the law. And i am very glad [this is the truth] that it has been clearly stated that trans people have still got protections under 2 protected characteristics"

And that is it.

In reality, i believe that, but i am outraged and upset at the protests and the constant whining about trans-rights. Nothing has changed except that the Stonewall version of the law is wrong.

(also: assuming that they could have also intervened like Sex Matters and the Lesbian group, why didn't Stonewall intervene? is it because they don't / won't / can't accept their version of the law is incorrect?)

Good on you for having the argument, despite the unpleasantness. I’ve had a few of these and they left me reeling for days, sometimes weeks. What I noticed though, was that often, the silent ‘bystanders’, who listened but didn’t join in, later approached me to ask more questions about my views. One friend, who had never considered the issue before listening to me and another friend have quite a heated argument, has become a very vocal GC activist. So take heart. These young ones maybe lost to the cult, at least until they are confronted in real life with a situation in which gender ideology hurts them because they are women. It may never, but if it does, they may one day return to you about this. In any case, being willing to speak for the ‘other side’ showed everyone in the room that there is a real debate to be had here and questions to be asked, and that good people such as you, are asking them. That’s a big deal and you should be proud of that.

Homphobic feminists? The rainbow represents all LGBTQ people not just trans people