Argument with younger family members

[CandidLurker]

I know there’s been a couple of threads but could do with thoughts/advice as to how to settle this in my mind.

At a family gathering yesterday someone brought up the SC decision. I knew exactly the reaction of two young women (both 20’s/very early 30’s) in the family so I tried not to say anytthing.

However, one did argue it from the point of view that this is an oppressed minority and it’s treating them like gay men used to be treated which annoyed me because I don’t think it’s the same at all, then I said I agreed with the SC decision and oh my God the outrage….
….some of the things that were said….no trans people were consulted in the SC decision…trans women don’t have a physical advantage in sports because they can take puberty blockers during adolescence….one shouted at me “BUT THEY HAVE GRC’s” and almost spat out JK Rowling’s name like she is an evil bitch.

I’m kind of upset because these are 2 young privileged women with parents who have helped them overcome every possible difficulty in life they have yet encountered. They’ve probably never encountered sexism in the workplace to the extent I did starting work in a male dominated profession in the 80’s. They weren’t born during the AIDS crisis and have no knowledge/memory of the kind of institutional prejudice gay men encountered (eg not being able to be honest about being gay as then they couldn’t get life insurance which was a requirement for a mortgage in those days).

i feel like they hate me. It feels a bit like when you are a child and you are accused of something serious you haven’t done!

I don’t think trying to speak to them about it will achieve anything..

Any words of wisdom appreciated.

Half of the girls are lesbian or bi. Try again! 😆

I had this with my gay DS a few years ago, it was when JKR first stepped in to the debate. I think the reason his generation dislike her so much (he is late 20s now) is that she was an absolute heroine in their eyes. We had Harry Potter everything in our house as my son was a reluctant reader (ASD, Dyslexia) and the HP books revolutionised his view of reading.

He has spent 10 years in academia, Oxbridge, Doctorate, etc and he has known nothing but hatred for her. I think that the whole LGBT+++ gives him a feeling of belonging and a friendship group, and he feels betrayed by her. I still find his views on this whole subject quite incredible as he is a scientist.

Anyway, we had a blazing row and didn’t speak for six months, which broke my heart. I was particularly upset as he referred to me as an old woman who didn’t understand the modern world and I should educate myself or keep quiet. This from a young man who has two sisters and was brought up to value and respect women. My DH brokered a low key reunion.

We are back to normal now, I ignore his social media feed which is pretty much nothing but trans support, with the occasional general rainbow post. I of course don't post anything pro GC, because I have too much at stake to risk it, yes my job, a couple of my younger friends possibly, but most of all of course my son. He must know how I feel, but it is just a no go area, and I keep quiet to keep my son.

His sisters are younger and less concerned, one has a low key, be kind attitude, which is how she is about everything, but no obvious support for TR. The other eye rolls, but keeps quiet at college as she knows how damaging it could be. I have no idea if they all talk about it when together.

How you proceed now depends on what relationship you want with your nieces. I do think it’s a shame your brother didn’t offer any support, but I get it, and it may well not have helped. My DH made it clear at the time of the argument that he holds the same views as me, but the vitriol was all aimed at me. It is as often said on here a men’s rights movement, with us Old Women seen to be hanging on to outdated rights.

I had this same debate with dh this morning. It ended with me telling him that under no circumstances could he ever envisage what it is like to be a woman.
I agree 100% with JKR and and glad of the legal decision.
What I said to dh was this, fine if you are ok with your DDs sharing intimate spaces with males and those makes go on to harm them, then so be it. Or they harm your mother. However, I’m going to insist they get the fuck away from me, my dd and my mother. They are not welcome near me if my family. Ever.
I then proceeded to explain to dh that this is why the right get voted in. Because they listen to reality and address those issues which matter to 50% of the population.

If a boy behaved like this, we'd call it toxic masculinity. Flame away at me but I would call behaviour like you describe toxic femininity. I have friends with some older teenage daughters behaving similarly with the meltdowns on social justice issues. It is manipulative behaviour but we tend to find excuses for young women.

I’m worried about possible fall out with family members after their threads posted in response to the ruling, one who works in a medical capacity so should know basic biology!

I don’t bring it up any more as try as I might to speak in a calm and adult way, I’ve been told (by people more my age 60+) my views are nasty, damaging and oppressive, and to get with the times. Pretty well the only place I can “speak” about it is here. Quite a lonely place to be.

Many GC women have been the "silent majority" for a long time.
We understand that, in youth, most of us hold strong opinions but some of these young people fail to understand that the law is based on facts. They seem to think that it should take into account people's feelings - never going to happen!
They also fail to understand that for decades we have been happy to accept that men who had chosen to live as women (often undergoing surgery etc) should be able to access women's spaces.
Unfortunately for those "reasonable" transwoman, the fanatical few/TRAs/violent and aggressive men have ruined what was actually a long period of tolerance and acceptance. They have effectively turned the clock back decades, not to mention displaying homophobic behaviour that has profoundly affected many lesbian women.
I am still baffled that all these activists who say they want to be women also think it's OK to threaten actual women with violence and death.

Maybe, within families, the subject just needs to be avoided until some of the younger members at least learn to respect other people's views!

I feel so much for mums posting here who are bullied into silence. The treatment is as if you are a racist spouting your racist views, or calling for the flogging of gay and lesbian individuals.

Not one of us here I imagine is asking for trans people to not be allowed to just be. What we are saying is that a trans woman is a trans woman,separate to a god damn woman and therefore does not qualify for inclusion in certain spheres as if they are too a woman/female. Where the heck is the hate or problem with this?

@Cynic17

“Unfortunately for those "reasonable" transwoman, the fanatical few/TRAs/violent and aggressive men have ruined what was actually a long period of tolerance and acceptance. They have effectively turned the clock back decades, not to mention displaying homophobic behaviour that has profoundly affected many lesbian women.”

So true, though we still tolerant and accept them, but not in our spaces, as now they want to ‘be’ women, rather than just ‘live like them’ , hence compete in women’s sports, prisons, etc. previously they knew there was a difference, now they don’t.

@Cynic17 I've just watched some footage of recent protests. We have placards calling for the hanging of terf women and other horrendous threats.

Is this ok? I wonder if the young, naive, be kind people we are discussing here have a view on how those placard holding tyrants should be handled? Will they be held to account in a way someone calling for the hanging of trans individuals might?

Of course the threats etc are not OK. I honestly don't know what we do about the people with placards, or the young people who support 5hem.
I absolutely believe in free speech, and people should totally be allowed to demonstrate in favour of trans rights. But the violence and brutality is the issue- imagine if GC women said violent/offensive things? Not that I think (m)any ever have.

I just want to thank everyone for their thoughtful posts. It’s an area that many of us seem to be navigating and many will have to continue to do so in the future, at home, work etc, in the light of the judgement.

I think this is the most important point. The only reason we need this sort of legislation is because of men. So men need to start being “kind”, and if anyone has a problem with single sex spaces then they need to take it up with men. Women are not collateral damage.

All this says to me is that your son is a misogynist, and you and your daughters should not be expected to listen to his vitriol.

I find it’s quite effective with younger people to invoke that delightful phrase ‘check your privilege’. Or more politely, to point out that they are speaking from a place of enormous (typically white, middle class) privilege if they can’t comprehend why females need single sex spaces away from males. Followed up by, but isn’t this patriarchal indoctrination in action, that so many women believe the feelings of males matter more than the safety and privacy of females?

Doesn’t necessarily win them over, but the suggestion of ‘privilege’ does take the wind out of their sails somewhat!

It does come across as manipulative and at times toxic. Treading on eggshells and avoidance a lot of the time has been our coping strategy. I love my daughter and we do make excuses mainly being her ASD. I don't think it comes from using her femininity but maybe I'm wrong. My Son whose 18 makes allowances for her too and and I admire his patience. He's away at uni and tells me one of his flat mates is very similar. He is often the peacemaker when others see the behaviour as purely rudeness and no self awareness.

The whole conversation was so vitriolic that it wouldn’t have done any good. She has utterly gone down the pathway of no debate and silences me if I say a word. If I try to explain, as I said I might in my post, it will be in the form of a letter. I can’t actually face speaking to her right now.

I never thought, in a million years, that she could be brought to despise me, as she seems to now. We loved each other so much.

This feels like begging a gaslighter to stop gaslighting you. Why should you write a letter to explain anything? It's so hurtful because it's your child. Yet, it's not ok to bully you for absolutely reasoned views. They're based in reason with excellent examples. Your daughter has simply chosen to refuse to explore them,to hear them, to listen to complete reason. And is then punishing you. You aren't calling for trans people not to exist or just 'be'.

You're her mum not her emotional punch bag or battering ram.

I have family who are actually narcissist and coercive and deserve to be put at arms length. If this is the sole reason that your daughter has put you at a distance and continually punishing you, then I implore you to stop trying to appeal to her and go nurture yourself,your life and everything for you so that you can more easily process things and leave your daughter to grow up and mature.

None of it is your fault or a reflection on you in any way. I have an Autistic son ( very anti trans), but I see that I can say something 1000 times,and live that value,yet it doesn't matter because nothing I do will change many of his fixed viewpoints. I bring Autism into this because it feels to me that a significant proportion of the trans community are Autistic.

Oh @PriOn1 that is so sad 😞 im so very sorry

I’m so grateful that my whole family is GC - they are my safe space. I don’t bring it up anywhere else

Tragically, along with so many destructive views, parental alienation is baked into extreme transactivism. Children and young people are taught that only the young understand sex change. Boundaries, parenting and safeguarding are reframed as transphobic bigotry by the non parents and older men with influence. Therefore anything other than terrified passive parents anxiously agreeing with their children are to be rejected. (Except of course when paying the bills / university fees etc).

They are also speaking from the very privileged position of never having had to fight for their rights, so they don’t actually understand what is at stake.

I have been nurturing myself and we have had no contact for months. I recognize fully that she is behaving in a narcissistic way at present. I don’t (want to?) believe she is narcissistic though. I suspect, though I can’t be sure, that she is being manipulated by a girlfriend who may be demanding that my daughter chooses between me and her. She has never, ever behaved like this the entire time she was growing up.

I want to remind her that I am here if she needs me and that however angry she feels, part of my reason for speaking out was to protect young women like her.

I may begin and find I can’t write it and I do fully understand that I am probably going to have to wait until she grows up enough to comprehend that I am a whole human being and not a mother that she can use as a punch bag.

My health is not particularly good though, and sometimes I worry that, if something should happen to me, she is going to have to live with knowing she fell out with me over something so stupid for the rest of her life. I would spare her that and if that means reaching out and being forgiving when she doesn’t deserve it, so be it.

I know. I just never thought it could happen to me. I was wrong.

Thanks everyone for your kind words.

If something happens to you and she missed the opportunity, that's entirely on your daughter, not you. You're doing that thing people like us do - we try fix things and take responsibility for other people's behaviour. We shouldn't.

She may be under a spell but you'll never pull her away from that. You can't. I will imagine she knows very well how much you love her.

All you need say is you're there if and when she needs you. Which I'm sure she knows.

For you ....💐

Well, as you said upthread, younger people are always more progressive. First women's rights, then TWAW, then Andrew Tate. Ever onwards and upwards, eh?