Them and they isn’t the right term right?

[storminabuttercup]

On Friday we were discussing the ruling at work, a man in my team (who’s teen identifies as they) said it’s just easier to refer to everyone as they/them?

i disagree massively he’s confused the hell out of us with this already

I’m not they or them because I’m a woman and not plural, he’s been doing this for months now and I’ve bit my tongue

how would you handle this?

just let him get on with it
ime when people start trying to use incorrect pronouns in conversation, especially if more than one person is being discussed, it quickly gets very confusing and the reason we have sex based pronouns becomes obvious, and even the most devout believer slips and starts reverting to natural speech

Well the colleague and the boss. The boss has trans children but the colleague had ‘they’ it’s exhausting

I’ll come back tomorrow but I’m feeling like my instincts are justified thank you

I think that you can say what your preferred pronouns are and say you would like them to use those - just like you would do for any colleague out of politeness. Do a Dr Upton and make a note of when you have that convo and ideally do it at a staff meeting. I wouldn't mention harassment at that point as it will just upset people. If the colleague misgenders you, you simply say please use my preferred pronouns. If they get to three strikes then according to Dr Upton's rule you can ask the boss for advice/put down a marker. Then you get the boss to ask on your behalf - which presumably they will if they have trans kids and are expecting other people to respect their pronouns. I mean fair's fair right? Good luck - your colleague sounds rude

They/them is ridiculous and I would not use it or want it to be used for me

It’s ridiculous

I'd let it go myself. I usually tell others they can't control my language, including pronoun use, so to me, that suggests I should let others get on with what they want to say.

It's annoying and often confusing, though. I really hope it goes out of style soon.

Yes, use the logic of all this to your advantage and say surely it's respectful to refer to colleagues by their preferred pronouns? Boss will agree and you then say 'my pronouns are she her, please use only those as I've asked you to or I will take it up with HR'.

His 'it's just easier' approach is the worst kind of 'I call all my servants Mary because I don't really see them as people and it saves me trouble' nineteenth century aristocrat style crap anyway.

I absolutely would not ask him to refer to you by the correct sexed pronouns. The whole point of "my pronouns are" is to coerce others' speech. Do not do this. If you get to demand certain pronouns, why can't others demand the pronouns of their choice? The point of third party pronouns is that they are about how the speaker describes what they perceive.

Grey rock him. Ignore it.

It is the fashion among young people to refer to everybody neutrally - mustn't assume how they identify their gender, tut tut. Don't take it personally.

Even if someone tells you they aren't Mx or they/ them? That seems a bit off. Almost like literal violence according to some!

At the very least, I would ask "Sorry, who?" every time he says 'they/them' to refer to somebody who is very much a standard 'he/him' or 'she/her'.

"Kate told me that they will get the spreadsheet over to us today."
"Sorry, who will?"
"Kate."
"Ah, right - thanks."

If he wants to deliberately add a layer of confusion and inefficiency, he can hardly be surprised when people bother him by asking for further clarification every single time. You never know: the penny might finally drop (but don't hold your breath).

It is the fashion among young people to refer to everybody neutrally - mustn't assume how they identify their gender, tut tut. Don't take it personally.

You mean like in the old days, when everybody was 'he' by default? Although even that was only used when you didn't know for a fact that you were referring to a female.

Surely you are assuming exactly how somebody identifies their gender (indeed that they actually believe that they have one) if you address everybody by 'they', which - far from being neutral - is commonly only used by gender-believing 'non-binary' or sometimes by other trans people.

It's no more neutral than calling everybody 'he' by default; the only difference is that, with the old sexist system, at least you would actually happen to be right approximately 50% of the time!

I agree. It is not at all neutral. It's presented as not assuming how they identify, yet is equally an assumption that they are believers in gender identity. But IMO telling someone how to describe you is tipping into coerced speech. Exactly the same as men demanding to be referred to by feminine pronouns, and enbies pretending that they don't have a sex. The only difference being that by demanding sex-accurate pronouns you're not demanding that someone else go along with your delusion.

The "Sorry, who?" approach is good. Using 3rd person plural pronouns by default for everybody makes language unclear (another TRA technique) and is very poor teamwork.

Why do the majority of the populations (men and women) have to put up with this nonsense to please a few confused individuals?

How many trans kids does he have?

Getting a letter or an email referring to me as Mx Temporary wouldn't bother me in the slightest, why should it? I'd actually prefer the formality to the 'Hi Perm!' that marketing depts go for. I have always used Ms where I'm asked but I know some women hate it.

As for they/them, it doesn't emphasise my sex at work where outside of changing rooms etc, I'd see it as a slightly odd attempt to be fair and neutral to everyone. Fine with me.

Kate told me that they will get the spreadsheet over to us today."

I don’t understand what is confusing about this at all? Probably because this is how I speak! It’s perfectly correct English and for me personally it’s got nothing to do with gendering someone.

I would be very pissed off if someone referred to me as she in front of me. My mother would always say ‘she’s the cat’s mother’, so I think I’ve just been brought up to see this as the height of rudeness.

You're all so weird. Just be clear about what you want within the bounds of being reasonable and stop pretending it's some crusade malign against your civil liberties to be respectful.

I also echo the sentiment that as tempting as it might be to hoist him by his own petard, I’d not want to be strengthening the notion of compelled speech by reporting him for using pronouns you don’t like. I’d ask for clarification each time and then just let him get on with it.

Oh, look, MN's resident TRAs have come out to support your colleague.

What you do is tell him to stop misgendering you. Do it in front of other people if you can, so you have witnesses. If he persists, tell him again, in writing or with someone else you trust present. If he does so again, go to your boss and say he's harassing you and you have witnesses and ask your boss to tell him, in front of you, that he is to call you by your correct she/ her pronouns.

If he continues to do it, raise a grievance and get him sacked for harassment. Does he do this to the men, too, or only the women? If it's only the women, he's harassing you for your sex. If it's everyone, he's harassing people with his beliefs.

There will never be a time when everyone is called they/ them or Mx in the workplace. The TRAs can fantasise but it's not going to happen.

Just seen that it's your boss doing this. Record it, get it one record, then go to your boss's boss.

If he won't use your chosen pronouns then don't use his. Explain this to him next time he calls you they

It's always been the case that you can use "they" when talking about an unknown person - "whoever did this, they did a great job".

But using singular they for a known person of unknown sex is quite different, and a recent thing: "Alex tossed their hair as they came into the room".
To many (most?) people this still sounds rather odd.

From an article in the Times: link below the quote to an archived version anyone can read:

Employers <a class="break-all" href="https://archive.ph/o/BMey6/www.thetimes.com/article/supreme-court-rules-trans-women-biological-sex-vxqt9b722" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">are being advised to review all policies on dress codes, single-sex spaces and parental leave in a scramble to avoid legal problems. The Chartered Institute of Personnel and Development has issued guidance to its 160,000 members, representing small and large businesses across the UK, advising them to “audit” internal guidelines to ensure “language reflects the legal definition of sex”.

Did you see that? Language reflects the legal definition of sex. Sex = male or female. Language = he/ him or she/ her. If your boss is requiring you to call each other they/them your boss faces a costly legal challenge.

http://archive.today/BMey6

Have edited to try to remove the extraneous code in the quote, but it's not working.

this is unclear because its not specified who is actually going to get the spreadsheet over
Kate is doing the telling
but who is doing the actual getting over of the spreadsheet

Kate told me that her team would get the spreadsheet over today can also be inferred.

If Kate is actually doing it rather than making sure it gets done, a clearer sentence would be

Kate told me that she would get the spreadsheet over to us today