A worrying thought about the SC judgment

[PlayerOneReady]

Is anyone else concerned that what may happen now, in reality, is a big increase in ‘gender neutral’ facilities as organisations realise they don’t actually have capacity for a third space, at least in the short term?

And we all know from what we’ve seen in theatres, etc, that that will end up with effectively one ‘Men’s/with urinals’ and one ‘Gender Neutral’.

It was this story in today’s Times that made me think about it. I’m especially worried about gym changing rooms etc. Would we have the right to challenge if this does happen?

story:

Equalities watchdog inundated with questions on trans women ruling

https://www.thetimes.com/article/557269e6-2902-4b30-b873-4fac87ba6253?shareToken=131768232050262c20823acf6fe87c92

Is Document T this one (https://www.gov.uk/government/consultations/toilet-provision-in-buildings-other-than-dwellings-technical-consultation/outcome/toilet-provision-in-buildings-other-than-dwellings)?

FWIW the SC ruling said that the GRC and any paperwork where the sex marker has been changed so it no longer matches the birth sex do not count when it comes to determining sex for single sex spaces. It's not clear what a GRC is for now, legally anyway.

Your sex, confirmed at birth by a genital inspection, remains unchanged.

A GRC does not give you the legal rights of the opposite sex because you remain in your birth sex class.

Sorry - am multitasking yes that’s the consultation bit.

This is the document. I have problems with it as it doesn’t mention door gaps but the HSE tell me the single sex designs C and D can have door gaps. Universal ones say fully enclosed as privacy is more important (than safety) - brackets mine!
https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/toilet-accommodation-approved-document-t

That link is pre General Election.
What did the new Government do about bringing the consultation into law ?

Oh @RiotAndAlarum your link doesn’t work. That’s interesting!

Yeah, I know a couple of Trans men who tend to use the men's toilets.

Generally men don't really care that much, we're not at risk from them in the same way women are from males in the female toilets.

I need to re-learn Mumsnet! I used to be able to do links and faces and everything, but thrdn had some time away, ad now I'm tech-useless!

(Ooh, faces in square brackets still work! I always loved the face...)

The ones I know do. Also male changing rooms. Both look very much like men and would definitely startle people in a women's toilet.

I was thinking it was interesting as it took me to it and it says page not found so I wondered if the government are looking at it! It appears to work again now.

HELLO GOVERNMENT IF YOU ARE WATCHING. Me again! Please do a proper equality and impact assessment for people with diabetes, epilepsy, heart conditions, neurological conditions that need safe toilets and make sure you detail safety gaps in the single sex specifications! Don’t rely on a private company who recommended enclosed designs (in your consultation for long term health conditions) because American toilet designers say they are supported by many transactivists. Look at the needs of people with long term health conditions.

Also if you say you can use the universal spec for single sex toilets add the gap in. The thousands of people having heart attacks and strokes each year will understand the need to be noticeable if collapsed. It’s nonsense to have defibrillators but you can’t see who needs them in the place people go to when they feel ill.

Finally remember if you are going to specify universal toilets can be opened from the outside, be aware of the problems that leads to when people let themselves in! The gap will at least give a women a bit of notice to grab her mobile phone. And may even prevent a lot of assaults happening in the first place in the otherwise unwitnessable privacy of a cubicle.

Document T only needs a few tweaks to save lives and prevent lots of criminal stuff happening inside cubicles.

I think that depends on the circumstances, but happy to be corrected.

So: hospitals, schools, work places - have a captive audience, must provide single sex toilets.

Entertainment venues - eg a friend of mine has run a goth club night in a function room above a pub for two decades. Capacity maybe 150, & people have always used opposite sex toilets to check eyeliner in the mirrors in the ladies, or jump the queue in the gents. She also has quite a few trans regulars. Her understanding is that she just needs to clarify that both toilets are open to everyone, & if you buy a ticket to attend you're happy with that, & she's good to carry on.

(I agree with her fwiw - no one HAS to attend her club night, & tbh I'd be pretty chilled using mixed sex toilets there - it's a fabulous night & very friendly.)

It might get interesting re privately hosted events if the venue decides its toilets are now single sex, I suppose - can a promoter book the space & designate provision as they wish?

However, the big win is that orgs now CAN do single sex provision!

I don't think anyone was ever out to stop a few middle aged gents in corsets from doing their lippy in the good mirrors in the Ladies in between dancing to 'Temple of Love', IF & ONLY IF that's the deal at a private ticketed event, that's the organiser's view of what will keep their demographic happy, & it's clearly stated when you buy a ticket to attend.

On the flipside, presumably a lesbian group could now book the exact same space for a women (SC definition) only speed dating event. & refuse entry to any males whatsoever.

It seems to me that this is win win sensible legislation for EVERYONE. About bloody time.

My friend is a trans man with a full beard. Had top half surgery but not bottom (yet) I really really worry for him now. Everyone is so concerned about the trans women they dont even stop to think about trans men.

I just hope he is welcomed in the ladies. 😢

(edit for typo)

Everyone is so concerned about the trans ppl they don’t consider disabled women and girls who now have guaranteed female only carers. Thank god as they’re the most vulnerable to sexual assault and abuse.

@CorvusPurpureus Employee toilets have to be single sex

@Tiredalwaystired The transman issue was specifically covered. They can use the men's if they like.

The Scottish Government wasn't concerned for your friend as they were intent on taking their legally held rights away whilst giving more to the men/tw. How does that make you and your friend feel? Surely that should be more worrying in the grand scheme of things.

So your friend is a woman that had her breasts removed?

Of course she’s welcome in the ladies toilets. My friend had her breasts removed because she’s at risk of cancer. Of course they can still use the ladies toilets.

Right now my friend doesn’t really give a flying fuck about that. Their more immediate impact on their life and the lives of a lot of their friends feels more important to them. Sorry if that bothers you.

Your friend's rights are the same today as they were last week.

They have female sex based rights
and Gender reassignment rights to protect the changes they have made to their body

they always did

No, that’s the judgement. A TW is male/ a man.

A £5 lady ticket doesn’t change it.

I think you need to read the judgement.
It is clearly argued that if making certified sex (or any stage towards gender reassignment) part of the protected characteristic of sex, this would mean that trans men (so biologically female, however they identify or wish to be known) would lose access to protection against discrimination, direct or indirect, based on biological sex. The judgement precisely upholds your friend’s rights to same-sex facilities and protections. Your friend has the rights not to be discriminated against compared to other biological women, regardless of her gender reassignment. I am not sure that is hard to understand. Disallowing your friend access to the female toilets on the basis of transition would be discrimination.

However, to protect the dignity and privacy of men and their right to same sex spaces where this achieves a legitimate and proportionate aim, your friend does not have the right to use said male same-sex spaces. Your friend never did have this right, whatever people may have believed - this is what the judgement clarifies - but your friend should not be discriminated against compared to other women because she is undergoing gender reassignment. This covers a range of protections which go beyond which bathroom people can use.

That's a bit aggressive when I was trying to be reassuring 🙄

Is anyone else concerned that what may happen now, in reality, is a big increase in ‘gender neutral’ facilities as organisations realise they don’t actually have capacity for a third space, at least in the short term?

You mean like disabled people have experienced since the year dot and still do ?

No, I don’t think transmen can use the men’s if they like. I am going to have a look and check my understanding is correct, but it would be wholly absurd to disallow transwomen from female same-sex spaces and allow transmen into male same-sex spaces.

@Talulahalula
Paragraph 221 of the judgement
(no I'm not a lawyer, Maya posted about it earlier)
https://supremecourt.uk/uploads/uksc_2024_0042_judgment_aea6c48cee.pdf

A trans man is a woman, right?

They should use the women’s toilets!