A worrying thought about the SC judgment

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Is anyone else concerned that what may happen now, in reality, is a big increase in ‘gender neutral’ facilities as organisations realise they don’t actually have capacity for a third space, at least in the short term?

And we all know from what we’ve seen in theatres, etc, that that will end up with effectively one ‘Men’s/with urinals’ and one ‘Gender Neutral’.

It was this story in today’s Times that made me think about it. I’m especially worried about gym changing rooms etc. Would we have the right to challenge if this does happen?

story:

Equalities watchdog inundated with questions on trans women ruling

https://www.thetimes.com/article/557269e6-2902-4b30-b873-4fac87ba6253?shareToken=131768232050262c20823acf6fe87c92

Except for it not being available for actual disabled people?!

Yes, it's perfect obvious that mixed sex facilities represent an increased risk for women.

It's exactly the same ride that we've been on.

Certain men will do anything to stick it to women, including saying see, now you've brought this on yourself.

Nope. The entire point was to examine the equality act. And the conclusion was this is how it is meant to be and that's it protects women on that basis

Provision suddenly going mixed sex everywhere does the opposite.

It might require more gardening, or more likely, just an unequivocal statement.

Are you suggesting they have hitherto been using the Gents?

So you are saying we can't say no to men because it might make a different group of men use the female toilet?

I think it’s important to realise that if you want to say people have to use the sex toilets they were assigned at birth then this means trans men’s in the ladies. It’s far more complex an issue than people seem to realise

Will you be happy seeing a trans man in the women’s toilets? Genuine question. How will you know if he’s a trans man that the SC ruling has decided must go to the toilet of his biological birth, or a biologically born male using the SC ruling to invade women’s spaces?

Please explain what the problem is with women who are pretending to be men using female facilities.

Women with PCOS and facial hair, women who have had mastectomies and don't have breasts, women who have had hysterectomies, women who like short hairstyles and women who prefer clothes from the men's section are already using the female facilities without issue.

It doesn't matter. The service provider can refuse entry.

It is, apparently, up to the user to convince the service provider of their sex.

Once successful, the service provider can let other users know.

Torturous, I know. But what you gonna do, Let all the men in instead?

this causes huge issues. It’s illegal to do this in the first instance.

Trans men can look the same as cis men. How are you going to know? I think that’s quite dangerous tbh. Like I said previously I would far rather a trans women in the ladies than risk cis men

I don't know why, statistically, they pose a greater risk.

edited to add, but you know, as soon as third spaces are up and running, you can those. As can transmen. Everyone's happy

Yes - bearded, balding and muscled…

I've never understood this " vulnerable" bit myself. The few trans people I've come across come across as anything but.

As always, undoubtedly it's the vociferous few spoiling it for the majority.

as soon as you say transwomen are ok you are saying all men are ok because the bad ones lie

They’ve now got cast iron protection for their female rights; equal pay and maternity rights.

They’re highly unlikely to be challenged in male toilets.

hopefully they’ll support their trans siblings in campaigning for safe third spaces.

from what i understand many trans identified females who have had phalloplasty have significant urinary issues, as do many on testosterone who haven’t. Urinary incontinence can be considered a disability.

that’s your personal opinion, not objective fact which the law is based on. And it’s not just about toilets.

This covers female only carers for disabled women and girls. Who are the group who suffer the most sexual abuse of any description. As perpetrators know who to target. They are far more vulnerable than TW.

Not that you’re generalising at all, of course.

Transwomen are men, and women are statistically at a high risk of violence from both.

Transmen are women, and women are not, statistically, at risk of violence from them. High or otherwise.

Like I said previously I would far rather a trans women in the ladies than risk cis men
For the sake of argument though. What is the difference between the two? Do you think transwomen have had surgery or use castration chemicals? What is the difference between a biological man saying he is a woman, and a biological man saying he is a man? Because that is all it is in the majority of cases.

Yes there will be some transmen that pass using the women's toilets. There will be a lot more transmen and nonbinary women who are very androgynous or read as female there too (the transmen i know are all in this category). Along with all the 'masc' young women I see insisting that they are frequently mistaken for men but who look entirely female to me. Hopefully we will all once more come to understand that being female is not about how you look or how you 'present'. It's not at all complicated.

Public toilets are self policed and ultimately there isn't a way to stop people who choose to use one not designed for them from doing so. The limitations of public toilet provision for women is one of the reasons that male people insisting on using them, when they could avoid doing so, is so infuriating. I just expect that the vast majority of people will follow both law and convention. Since trans people are just like everyone else, same for them. And I do expect everyone to stay out of the accessible toilets if they have another option.

Quite. The point is that this ruling allows people to challenge. Transmen might 'pass' more often than transwomen,but they still very rarely do imo. Hence posters always wheeling out pictures of the same couple of well-known ones when they want to claim that transmen pass. In real life, in close proximity, they will pass even less.

IMO, women who take extreme lengths to hide their femaleness need to stay out of certain single-sex spaces. Places like public toilets, changing rooms and other facilities people use without any vetting from officials. Testosterone is a powerful masculiniser. It can cause females, at least in casual interactions, to look like men. A woman who goes down the route of using it to hide her femaleness needs to accept her presence will cause distress in the ladies’ and refrain from using it.

Unfortunately, men and women are not equal in any society. Women are not as strong physically and have less power in general, so it is still reasonable to have a policy for access to single-sex spaces that isn’t exactly the same for males and females. That is, males cannot use female single-sex spaces but in some circumstances, females can use male single-sex spaces.

Oh no, are you suggesting that men might lie in order to gain access to female spaces? I thought that didn’t happen ..?

All these people suddenly concerned that men might lie about being trans men, after dismissing endlessly the suggestion that they might lie about being trans women.

Theres a difference between an official mixed sex ward, and a ward that is female only but includes men.

Neither is optimal, but if everyone is aware - staff and patients that the ward is mixed, they can be aware of the dangers and mitigate for them - more staff present, having both male and female toilets.

If everyone believes its single sex and the ward is set up for only one sex, those extra protections may not be in place.

People talk as if changing the signs on doors from women only to everyone solves the problem. It doesnt. Mixed sex means that the organisation of the space is different, and hospitals have a duty to keep everyone safe.

You can keep banging on about it, but no one’s buying it. There are two sexes (not gender at birth, whatever you mean by that) and they are male and female. Everyone uses the facilities of their sex. Or, if they are available, and they want, they can use mixed sex facilities. Or stay home. I don’t care. I also don’t care whether you would prefer a bloke in a dress in your loo vs a bloke in trousers. Plenty of women do care, and they’ve said No - and the law is on their side.
Do you think the rate of offending is higher in one group of men vs another group of men btw? There is. But probably not in the way you’re attempting to assert.

This is our strongest ammunition . We must raise awareness of this.