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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

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Original poster

Reframe your disappointment

300 replies

MissScarletInTheBallroom · 18/04/2025 06:58

Inspired by a couple of other threads about the reaction to the Supreme Court judgment from trans allies, I thought it might be interesting to have a thread to discuss what to say to people if it comes up in conversation.

Comments I've seen so far seem to suggest:

  • the judgment was legally wrong and this isn't the end
  • the judgment might have been legally correct but it was morally wrong and the law needs to be changed
  • trans rights are now being rolled back
  • this is a victory for the far right
  • this was orchestrated and bank rolled by the far right
  • this decision will now embolden transphobes to harass and victimise trans people

Perhaps we could brainstorm the best ways to respond to these (and any other) talking points, should they arise?

OP posts:
Thread gallery
6
Original poster
MissScarletInTheBallroom · 18/04/2025 08:42

Aprilweather · 18/04/2025 08:13

I am just laughing that women's rights are apparently a far right thing....
Is there anything that is not a far right thing? 🤦

The far right have always been radical feminists. How did you not know this?

OP posts:
Original poster
MissScarletInTheBallroom · 18/04/2025 08:43

Micaela64 · 18/04/2025 08:29

Of course it's a win for the far right. GB News and Reform UK are delighted. Leftists are hardly known for their transphobia are they?

Edited

Do you genuinely think that For Women Scotland is a far right group?

On what basis?

The far right will always celebrate the left getting egg on its face.

OP posts:
Original poster
MissScarletInTheBallroom · 18/04/2025 08:46

Conxis · 18/04/2025 08:28

I say the law has been clarified by the highest court in the land. And then say exactly what the judge said that trans people are fully protected by law, the same as everyone else.
No-one has removed any rights, they have exactly the same rights as they had last week.

The only difference is that we now know for certain that female people exist in law and have sex based rights.

OP posts:
Original poster
MissScarletInTheBallroom · 18/04/2025 08:52

Gettingmadderallthetime · 18/04/2025 07:30

Would like a response got the comment that appears regularly as 'No trans people/organisations were consulted. implication that 'had they only listened to real experts ...' This was also used vs. The Case review and English Black Ball Pool. I

The Wikipedia entry states this ...

'During the hearing, the court received testimony from a number of gender-critical advocacy groups, including Sex Matters and the LGB Alliance, while notably not hearing testimony from any trans people themselves. Prior to the hearing, the court denied a request from the Good Law Project to add testimony from a pair of trans legal experts. Amnesty International submitted testimony in support of the Scottish Government's position.[11][12] '

Isn't Amnesty International unabashedly pro trans? I am not aware of the specific points made by Amnesty International, but it would have to be one hell of a reverse ferret if they were there advocating for women rather than trans people.

As you say, Stonewall and various other trans rights advocacy groups have played a major role in influencing how the Equality Act has been interpreted and put into practice in the UK. It turns out that they misinterpreted it and gave misleading advice, meaning that women's legal rights have not been properly upheld as a result. So perhaps they are not the best people to be submitting evidence to the Supreme Court.

That said, I kind of wish they had been involved. The relentless bullshit they come out with needs to be properly exposed.

OP posts:
Original poster
MissScarletInTheBallroom · 18/04/2025 08:54

Micaela64 · 18/04/2025 08:52

Edited
Show quote history

So what?

Are you suggesting that women's rights shouldn't be upheld in case it makes Nigel Farage happy?

Don't you think that sounds a little...silly?

OP posts:
BackToLurk · 18/04/2025 08:56

Micaela64 · 18/04/2025 08:29

Of course it's a win for the far right. GB News and Reform UK are delighted. Leftists are hardly known for their transphobia are they?

Edited

Reform UK have called for the renationalisation of British Steel. So are they now leftists or are the Greens and others of the left who also support it now right wing? Or could it be secret Option C, sometimes people agree on one thing but not others (and not always for the same reason)?

Greyskybluesky · 18/04/2025 08:58

Apparently Farage called it an "outbreak of common sense from our judiciary"

Are we not supposed to agree with those words while still being able to despise Farage?

misscockerspaniel · 18/04/2025 08:58

But (some) Leftists are feminists and in the eyes of TRAs and their allies, anybody who accepts that women's rights have been trampled into the ground by the trans-movement, is a transphobe. For example, does objecting to the placing of any male prisoner into the female estate, make a person a transphobe?

LavenderFields7 · 18/04/2025 09:02

It’s right that sex is a protected characteristic AND at the same time gender needs to be a protected characteristic.

Micaela64 · 18/04/2025 09:03

MissScarletInTheBallroom · 18/04/2025 08:54

So what?

Are you suggesting that women's rights shouldn't be upheld in case it makes Nigel Farage happy?

Don't you think that sounds a little...silly?

Show quote history

I'm suggesting you lot share the tactics of the far right by taking a small number of wrong doers and tarring an entire group with it.

You have the same characteristics of being closed minded about minority groups you don't understand, most of which are nice people if you'd take the time to actually get to know some and better understand them. It's the same uncurious and paranoid world view.

There's people on here who really think all trans people want to have sex with them, same nonsense that was said about gay people in the 80s when people were trying to ban them from changing rooms etc too

PriOn1 · 18/04/2025 09:03

“Say women are A, men are B, trans women are C, and so on. Each of these groups have their own different needs.
What C wants may very well be a shared space with A. But if that isn't what A wants, the shared space is only working for C and not A. And if it isn't working for A, you have lost your legal justification for excluding B.”

I just wanted to chime in to say I love this, @MissScarletInTheBallroom . I know it’s intuitive that this is the case to us, but setting it out in a way that makes sense and is easy to understand and explain is always useful. It gives moments of clarity in my often frazzled brain.

SerenaSemolena · 18/04/2025 09:06

I would just like to give the OP an award for the thread title. 🏆

Waitwhat23 · 18/04/2025 09:07

SerenaSemolena · 18/04/2025 09:06

I would just like to give the OP an award for the thread title. 🏆

Agreed. I would love to see it trending everywhere!

ArtemisiaTheArtist · 18/04/2025 09:08

Many men and women I know who support stating the bloody obvious are lefties, including me. We are union members, we vote Labour (sometimes whilst holding our nose) and we believe in the fair distribution of wealth. We think most people have too little and deserve more. So, no, it's not just the "far right*" supporting this.

*There's no moderate, or centre right anymore is there? It all has to be pinned to extremes.

BackToLurk · 18/04/2025 09:10

Micaela64 · 18/04/2025 09:03

I'm suggesting you lot share the tactics of the far right by taking a small number of wrong doers and tarring an entire group with it.

You have the same characteristics of being closed minded about minority groups you don't understand, most of which are nice people if you'd take the time to actually get to know some and better understand them. It's the same uncurious and paranoid world view.

There's people on here who really think all trans people want to have sex with them, same nonsense that was said about gay people in the 80s when people were trying to ban them from changing rooms etc too

Show quote history

That’s not what the ruling is about. It’s about the clarification of the Equality Act, which wouldn’t have been needed if a significant number of male people hadn’t started taking the piss.

Nobody thinks ‘all trans people want to have sex with them’ any more than they think ‘all men want to have sex with them’. They do know however that some men (males) will rape them. Although I guess if you try to reframe rape as ‘having sex’ you may not get that. They also think quite simply that if something says it is single sex then it should be single sex. That’s it.

Original poster
MissScarletInTheBallroom · 18/04/2025 09:10

Micaela64 · 18/04/2025 09:03

I'm suggesting you lot share the tactics of the far right by taking a small number of wrong doers and tarring an entire group with it.

You have the same characteristics of being closed minded about minority groups you don't understand, most of which are nice people if you'd take the time to actually get to know some and better understand them. It's the same uncurious and paranoid world view.

There's people on here who really think all trans people want to have sex with them, same nonsense that was said about gay people in the 80s when people were trying to ban them from changing rooms etc too

Show quote history

When we insist that everyone who wants to work with children has a DBS check, are we tarring everyone with the same brush as paedophiles?

When we tell men that they can't use women's changing rooms, are we saying we think they are all perverts?

When I lock my car or my front door, is it because I think everyone in my neighbourhood wants to steal from me?

Or is it because every sensible person knows that a small number of people are paedophiles/perverts/thieves, and we don't know which people they are because they don't walk around with signs on their heads, so we take reasonable precautions to protect ourselves?

Nobody is claiming that all trans women are like Karen White or Katie Dolatowski or Isla Bryson.

But there are women and girls out there who were sexually assaulted, or touched by a man they now know to be a rapist, because they were required to pretend that Karen and Katie and Isla are women. None of those victims can turn the clock back and go back to being the person they were before these things happened to them. They are now mentally scarred for life. Do you not think we should be doing everything we can to ensure that it doesn't happen again?

OP posts:
ErrolTheDragon · 18/04/2025 09:11

I’m sure the Reform mob are delighted. But not because they actually support women’s rights more than trans rights (as with trumpists, I’m sure many are both misogynistic and genuinely transphobic). No. Their delight is because of the evident idiocy of all the other parties on this matter.
The Labour and Conservatives are turning their tankers round to more sensible positions, but in local elections I’m sure reform will benefit from the misguided antiwomen, irrational stance of so many Greens and LibDems. Such a massive own goal by the supposedly ‘progressive’ parties.

Anywherebuthere · 18/04/2025 09:12

Micaela64 · 18/04/2025 08:29

Of course it's a win for the far right. GB News and Reform UK are delighted. Leftists are hardly known for their transphobia are they?

Edited

It's safe to say women are delighted. Real biological women whose spaces were being taken over by men saying they are women.

It has nothing to do with the far right. But if they are delighted they have good reason to be.

ArtemisiaTheArtist · 18/04/2025 09:14

Greyskybluesky · 18/04/2025 08:58

Apparently Farage called it an "outbreak of common sense from our judiciary"

Are we not supposed to agree with those words while still being able to despise Farage?

You can agree with a total fuckwit and still 99% disagree with said fuckwit. For he is one.

TwoLoonsAndASprout · 18/04/2025 09:14

Kucinghitam · 18/04/2025 08:11

It's Schrödinger's ruling.

Both horrendously evil leading to extreme victimisation and distress, and utterly irrelevant because nothing has changed.

Do keep up Grin

Show quote history

This is delightful! Do love a Shrödinger ref!

Original poster
MissScarletInTheBallroom · 18/04/2025 09:14

LavenderFields7 · 18/04/2025 09:02

It’s right that sex is a protected characteristic AND at the same time gender needs to be a protected characteristic.

I am not opposed to that in principle, but in order to protect it you need to be able to explain what it is first.

And I am yet to come across anyone who can.

OP posts:
napody · 18/04/2025 09:15

2021x · 18/04/2025 07:35

I have seen a few things but something that struck me is that it doesn’t actually change anything from 2010, but is a clarification on what the word “woman” and “man” meant when the equality act was written.

There are no changes to the protections for trans-people or for women, but it will prevent mis-readings of the Equality Act when it comes to providing single sex spaces for the safety of women.

Therefore the only TG people it will effect, are those who were exploiting the “ambiguity” in the EQ for their own reasons. For most trans-people it not only doesn’t effect them, but has reinforced those protections they have as a protected class. If TGwomen are women, then they do not need the protections that are unique to their situation ie medical care, discrimination in the workplace etc..,

The toilet issue is a little complicated, and I can see employment law being the bearer of that problem, but it now the EQ can be read clearly it will make it easier to sort out.

Edited

Yes exactly.
The right tone here should be absolute humility from the organisations involved. It's a scandal that they were misusing the equality act for so long. Where are the apologies?!

The reason the courts heard from GC groups rather than trans groups is because the GC initiated the whole thing! Without them everyone would still be going about misapplying law to the detriment of women. The tone is all wrong!

napody · 18/04/2025 09:18

ErrolTheDragon · 18/04/2025 09:11

I’m sure the Reform mob are delighted. But not because they actually support women’s rights more than trans rights (as with trumpists, I’m sure many are both misogynistic and genuinely transphobic). No. Their delight is because of the evident idiocy of all the other parties on this matter.
The Labour and Conservatives are turning their tankers round to more sensible positions, but in local elections I’m sure reform will benefit from the misguided antiwomen, irrational stance of so many Greens and LibDems. Such a massive own goal by the supposedly ‘progressive’ parties.

Edited

Exactly. The goal has been left open for over a decade, before Reform existed, before Trump's first term. It's not them that have made the left bury their heads in the sand. But yup, they've made hay from it. Accepting the result and moving on is the quickest way to take that power away from them.

Micaela64 · 18/04/2025 09:23

MissScarletInTheBallroom · 18/04/2025 09:10

When we insist that everyone who wants to work with children has a DBS check, are we tarring everyone with the same brush as paedophiles?

When we tell men that they can't use women's changing rooms, are we saying we think they are all perverts?

When I lock my car or my front door, is it because I think everyone in my neighbourhood wants to steal from me?

Or is it because every sensible person knows that a small number of people are paedophiles/perverts/thieves, and we don't know which people they are because they don't walk around with signs on their heads, so we take reasonable precautions to protect ourselves?

Nobody is claiming that all trans women are like Karen White or Katie Dolatowski or Isla Bryson.

But there are women and girls out there who were sexually assaulted, or touched by a man they now know to be a rapist, because they were required to pretend that Karen and Katie and Isla are women. None of those victims can turn the clock back and go back to being the person they were before these things happened to them. They are now mentally scarred for life. Do you not think we should be doing everything we can to ensure that it doesn't happen again?

Edited
Show quote history

The vast majority of rapes are by cis males and don't take place in public changing rooms and toilets. But easier to focus on a tiny minority within a tiny minority, huh?