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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Reframe your disappointment

300 replies

MissScarletInTheBallroom · 18/04/2025 06:58

Inspired by a couple of other threads about the reaction to the Supreme Court judgment from trans allies, I thought it might be interesting to have a thread to discuss what to say to people if it comes up in conversation.

Comments I've seen so far seem to suggest:

  • the judgment was legally wrong and this isn't the end
  • the judgment might have been legally correct but it was morally wrong and the law needs to be changed
  • trans rights are now being rolled back
  • this is a victory for the far right
  • this was orchestrated and bank rolled by the far right
  • this decision will now embolden transphobes to harass and victimise trans people

Perhaps we could brainstorm the best ways to respond to these (and any other) talking points, should they arise?

OP posts:
Thread gallery
6
TheOtherRaven · 18/04/2025 09:26

Would you like to explain that to Dolotowski's victims? And White's victims? And Bryson's victims?

ErrolTheDragon · 18/04/2025 09:27

Micaela64 · 18/04/2025 09:23

The vast majority of rapes are by cis males and don't take place in public changing rooms and toilets. But easier to focus on a tiny minority within a tiny minority, huh?

We can think about more than one thing at once, you know. While obviously current attention is on this very recent and important piece of news re the clarification of the Equality Act, feminists also focus and campaign about VAGW issues.

TwoLoonsAndASprout · 18/04/2025 09:27

Micaela64 · 18/04/2025 09:23

The vast majority of rapes are by cis males and don't take place in public changing rooms and toilets. But easier to focus on a tiny minority within a tiny minority, huh?

Research shows that even those who undertake a medicalised transition tend to retain patterns of behaviour and risk typical of their sex. A study undertaken at the Karolinska Institute in Sweden followed a population of individuals who had undergone medical, surgical and legal sex reassignment between 1973 and 2003 (324 in total) and compared them to a matched control group of their birth sex. It compared the likelihood of a person having one or more criminal convictions and convictions for violent crime. The study found that "male-to-female" transitioners retained male patterns of offending for criminality, including violent crime. They were over 6 times more likely to be convicted of an offence than female comparators and 18 times more likely to be convicted of a violent offence. The group had no statistically significant differences from other males, either for convictions in general or for violent offending.

(From submission to Peggie vs NHSFife)

BernardBlacksMolluscs · 18/04/2025 09:29

LavenderFields7 · 18/04/2025 09:02

It’s right that sex is a protected characteristic AND at the same time gender needs to be a protected characteristic.

oh please, please campaign to have gender protected under the law so we can have debates in parliament about the defining characteristics of people with feminine or masculine genders.

it will lay absolutely bare the rampant sexism that drives transgenderism.

do it please, I beg you.

Waitwhat23 · 18/04/2025 09:30

Waitwhat23 · 18/04/2025 09:07

Agreed. I would love to see it trending everywhere!

I've been musing about why the thread title really hits the mark and thought i should explain further for anyone who isn't aware of the background of the whole 'reframe your...'.

I am fucking angry. Angry that gender ideology took over all the institutions in my country and made it acceptable for a man to override an occupational requirement (as stated in the EQA2010) to take over a rape crisis service, remove all single sex services, force out staff who questioned lying to survivors and then tell survivors who then self excluded to 'reframe your trauma'.

Fucking angry that this was allowed. Fucking angry that the EQA2010 was ridden roughshod over and we're getting absolute fools (including on this thread) telling us that we're all right wing Trump supporters because we objected to the way that the provisions in the EQA2010 for the safety and dignity of women were ignored. Hand waved away for the validation and feelings of men.

So honestly? Fuck off with your 'you're all right wing!!!' shit. I've had enough.

(And apologies to the OP if I've taken more from the title than was intended).

MissScarletInTheBallroom · 18/04/2025 09:30

Micaela64 · 18/04/2025 09:23

The vast majority of rapes are by cis males and don't take place in public changing rooms and toilets. But easier to focus on a tiny minority within a tiny minority, huh?

So because the majority of rapes are committed in other circumstances, we don't need to worry about the minority of rapes that occur as a result of men being able to access women's toilets?

Because that sounds very much as if you are saying that Katie Dolatowski's child victims ARE acceptable collateral damage for trans women being allowed to use the toilet of their choosing.

Is that really what you think?

OP posts:
Ereshkigalangcleg · 18/04/2025 09:31

The majority of rapists are never prosecuted. I doubt anyone asked for their gender identity, and I don’t recognise the concept of “cis male” as anything more than genderist jargon. Men are men. Some prey on women.

Micaela64 · 18/04/2025 09:32

TheOtherRaven · 18/04/2025 09:26

Would you like to explain that to Dolotowski's victims? And White's victims? And Bryson's victims?

The problem there is the rapists.

You're using the same logic that says we shouldn't allow people to seek refuge here because some refugees have raped people. Or when the Klan used to say all black people were bad and women need protecting from them because of isolated crimes from a small number of individuals.

BernardBlacksMolluscs · 18/04/2025 09:33

Micaela64 · 18/04/2025 09:23

The vast majority of rapes are by cis males and don't take place in public changing rooms and toilets. But easier to focus on a tiny minority within a tiny minority, huh?

men shouldn't be in women's changing rooms and toilets because plenty of women don't want them there.

full stop, the end

women are allowed to say no to men, even when it makes them really sad.

LonginesPrime · 18/04/2025 09:34

My first question to someone who says the ruling was unfair/transphobic/wrong would be to ask them if they’ve actually read the judgment themselves.

The reaction to this ruling feels very similar to when the Cass review came out and people were parroting how terrible and transphobic it was without even stopping to read the document they were trashing first. All of that died down once enough people actually read it and realised it was a perfectly reasonable and measured report, as there’s nothing to point out to be outraged about.

The Supreme Court ruling goes into a ridiculous amount of detail examining each relevant provision of the EA in turn, and analyses what outcomes would arise if you interpret sex as ‘biological sex’ or as ‘certificated sex’ in each case.

No-one who actually reads it would think it was based on anything other than sensible and extremely thorough legal analysis, so the notion that it was a fudge funded by the far right makes zero sense in the context of the judgment itself, and honestly it makes the person claiming it’s a conspiracy look rather silly, IMO.

The judges also took great care to ensure trans men are interpreted as having maternity rights arising from the EA (as any other position would be unconscionable, despite that being what the Scottish government would have achieved had they won). Furthermore, the judges supported the argument that trans activists have been making for years: that there is no noticeable difference between a trans person with a GRC and one who self-IDs (especially since the GRC is a secret document no-one can demand to see).

They pointed out that since a transwoman with a GRC can still present as a man if they want and would obviously have a male-body when doing so, a situation could arise where there is no distinguishable difference between a male with a GRC stating they’re a woman and a male without one, so how could a rape crisis centre, for example, justify letting a man into a woman’s space purely because he has a GRC, while denying access to another man (or to a self-IDing transwoman) on the grounds of women’s safety and comfort? On what grounds would one man be safe for women but the others not? The only way the EA can give protection to women as a class is if it’s sex-based class, as no other definition of ‘woman’ makes logical sense in that particular context.

As PPs have said, the other key point is that the Supreme Court doesn’t make the law and can’t change it; they merely interpret the law as it stands. If people don’t like the law as it stands, then that’s where lobbying the government to change the law comes in. My main question to people on that would be “why are you parroting what Stonewall are saying about the judgment instead of holding them to account for wilfully misinterpreting the law and misleading the organisations who trusted them, when they should have been lobbying the government to change the law in the first place?”.

Stonewall consistently and openly stated that they were pushing the organisations they advised to “go further than the law” on trans rights, and they made no secret of the fact the EA didn’t actually support the policy changes they pushed organisations (including NHS, police, etc) to make. Stonewall’s overreach has been evident for years, so anyone who’s surprised that there’s a mismatch between Stonewall law and actual law was clearly only hearing what they wanted to hear from Stonewall, as even Stonewall openly admitted the two were different.

BernardBlacksMolluscs · 18/04/2025 09:34

Micaela64 · 18/04/2025 09:32

The problem there is the rapists.

You're using the same logic that says we shouldn't allow people to seek refuge here because some refugees have raped people. Or when the Klan used to say all black people were bad and women need protecting from them because of isolated crimes from a small number of individuals.

Edited

dear lord

performance art anyone? no-one could really be sincerely saying this stuff, surely?

MissScarletInTheBallroom · 18/04/2025 09:35

Micaela64 · 18/04/2025 09:32

The problem there is the rapists.

You're using the same logic that says we shouldn't allow people to seek refuge here because some refugees have raped people. Or when the Klan used to say all black people were bad and women need protecting from them because of isolated crimes from a small number of individuals.

Edited

Yes, the problem is the rapists.

Rapists, unfortunately, are gonna rape.

Society's job is to make it more difficult for them. You want to make it easier for them.

OP posts:
ethelredonagoodday · 18/04/2025 09:37

This thread is brilliant and helpful.

Ive been bemused by many people I’ve seen posting on SM over the last few days who clearly have no idea how the legal system in this country works.

also, I’m another life long lefty, who is very pleased with this judgement. This narrative that we’re all right wing bigots is another mad part of this debate!

Greyskybluesky · 18/04/2025 09:37

Micaela64 · 18/04/2025 09:32

The problem there is the rapists.

You're using the same logic that says we shouldn't allow people to seek refuge here because some refugees have raped people. Or when the Klan used to say all black people were bad and women need protecting from them because of isolated crimes from a small number of individuals.

Edited

These are racist arguments. Not arguments about needing to keep some facilities etc separate based on sex.
Can you honestly not see the difference?

TheOtherRaven · 18/04/2025 09:37

Micaela64 · 18/04/2025 09:32

The problem there is the rapists.

You're using the same logic that says we shouldn't allow people to seek refuge here because some refugees have raped people. Or when the Klan used to say all black people were bad and women need protecting from them because of isolated crimes from a small number of individuals.

Edited

I'm not even engaging with that, don't be silly.

Those men intentionally used their 'right' of access to get into women's spaces and hurt women. Women are not collateral damage, it is beyond naive to try and block out the very wide range of motivations involved for men who wish to be with women (whether they consent or not) in a state of undress, and it is not ok to exclude and harm women so that men can be happy.

And its irrelevant what you and I think anyway as the law has now been clarified. No more women will be raped and assaulted by a man permitted into a woman's prison or hospital ward because someone thought he was probably nice and well intentioned and it wasn't like the women mattered.

SionnachRuadh · 18/04/2025 09:39

I know lots of people on the left (some of them even lawyers!) who think of themselves as feminists, or feminist allies if they're male. In many cases I don't doubt their sincerity.

Yet because of their ideology - which includes ideas like, excluding penis people from female spaces is exactly the same as Jim Crow laws excluding black women - these great feminists now find themselves saying things like, it's bigoted for rape survivors to want a female-only peer counselling group.

My friends have got Oxbridge degrees coming out of their arses. Nigel Farage didn't force them to be stupid. They did it to themselves.

Didn't Orwell say something about how there are some things so absurd than only an intellectual can believe them?

Ereshkigalangcleg · 18/04/2025 09:40

BernardBlacksMolluscs · 18/04/2025 09:33

men shouldn't be in women's changing rooms and toilets because plenty of women don't want them there.

full stop, the end

women are allowed to say no to men, even when it makes them really sad.

what Bernard said.

misscockerspaniel · 18/04/2025 09:40

@Micaela64 Instead of scolding women for standing up for their rights, why not turn your attention to the real problem? Put your energy into getting other men to accept TW for what they are - males. Women are not stopping TW from taking part in men's teams or from using men's changing rooms etc, and to be fair, I doubt that most men are either.

Micaela64 · 18/04/2025 09:40

BernardBlacksMolluscs · 18/04/2025 09:33

men shouldn't be in women's changing rooms and toilets because plenty of women don't want them there.

full stop, the end

women are allowed to say no to men, even when it makes them really sad.

Just like the women in the 80s who didn't want lesbians in their changing rooms. How quickly the lesbians who now do the same to trans women forget

MissScarletInTheBallroom · 18/04/2025 09:42

LonginesPrime · 18/04/2025 09:34

My first question to someone who says the ruling was unfair/transphobic/wrong would be to ask them if they’ve actually read the judgment themselves.

The reaction to this ruling feels very similar to when the Cass review came out and people were parroting how terrible and transphobic it was without even stopping to read the document they were trashing first. All of that died down once enough people actually read it and realised it was a perfectly reasonable and measured report, as there’s nothing to point out to be outraged about.

The Supreme Court ruling goes into a ridiculous amount of detail examining each relevant provision of the EA in turn, and analyses what outcomes would arise if you interpret sex as ‘biological sex’ or as ‘certificated sex’ in each case.

No-one who actually reads it would think it was based on anything other than sensible and extremely thorough legal analysis, so the notion that it was a fudge funded by the far right makes zero sense in the context of the judgment itself, and honestly it makes the person claiming it’s a conspiracy look rather silly, IMO.

The judges also took great care to ensure trans men are interpreted as having maternity rights arising from the EA (as any other position would be unconscionable, despite that being what the Scottish government would have achieved had they won). Furthermore, the judges supported the argument that trans activists have been making for years: that there is no noticeable difference between a trans person with a GRC and one who self-IDs (especially since the GRC is a secret document no-one can demand to see).

They pointed out that since a transwoman with a GRC can still present as a man if they want and would obviously have a male-body when doing so, a situation could arise where there is no distinguishable difference between a male with a GRC stating they’re a woman and a male without one, so how could a rape crisis centre, for example, justify letting a man into a woman’s space purely because he has a GRC, while denying access to another man (or to a self-IDing transwoman) on the grounds of women’s safety and comfort? On what grounds would one man be safe for women but the others not? The only way the EA can give protection to women as a class is if it’s sex-based class, as no other definition of ‘woman’ makes logical sense in that particular context.

As PPs have said, the other key point is that the Supreme Court doesn’t make the law and can’t change it; they merely interpret the law as it stands. If people don’t like the law as it stands, then that’s where lobbying the government to change the law comes in. My main question to people on that would be “why are you parroting what Stonewall are saying about the judgment instead of holding them to account for wilfully misinterpreting the law and misleading the organisations who trusted them, when they should have been lobbying the government to change the law in the first place?”.

Stonewall consistently and openly stated that they were pushing the organisations they advised to “go further than the law” on trans rights, and they made no secret of the fact the EA didn’t actually support the policy changes they pushed organisations (including NHS, police, etc) to make. Stonewall’s overreach has been evident for years, so anyone who’s surprised that there’s a mismatch between Stonewall law and actual law was clearly only hearing what they wanted to hear from Stonewall, as even Stonewall openly admitted the two were different.

Great post.

I would add that there is no problem with people advocating for a certain group's rights to recommend that organisations "go further than the law".

This is only what every employer which offers more than basic statutory maternity pay is doing.

Laws giving people rights are nothing more than a minimum obligation that society must agree to respect.

But what is not OK is going "beyond the law" for one group, if the result of that is the infringement of another group's rights.

So, for example, if you are an employer and you want to go beyond the law in terms of providing toilet and changing facilities where trans people feel safe and comfortable, you can paint trans flags on the door and declare it an inclusive, trans friendly space. There is absolutely nothing wrong with that.

What you shouldn't do is designate all your women's toilets as open to everyone and put posters on the walls telling them that if they see someone who doesn't look like they belong in there, they need to suck it up and stop being such a horrible bigot.

OP posts:
BernardBlacksMolluscs · 18/04/2025 09:42

Micaela64 · 18/04/2025 09:32

The problem there is the rapists.

You're using the same logic that says we shouldn't allow people to seek refuge here because some refugees have raped people. Or when the Klan used to say all black people were bad and women need protecting from them because of isolated crimes from a small number of individuals.

Edited

extremely funny spiked article that has had me chuckling this morning. B O'N certainly has quite a turn of phrase

https://www.spiked-online.com/2025/04/17/the-hilarious-meltdown-of-men-who-think-theyre-women/

It used to be alt-right wankers who called feminists ‘feminazis’. Now it’s nonbinary wankers. Two cheeks of the same arse.

SionnachRuadh · 18/04/2025 09:43

If you think lesbians chatting up women who they fancy but who turn out to be straight is the same as male-bodied people in intimate female spaces, I've got nothing for you.

MissScarletInTheBallroom · 18/04/2025 09:43

Micaela64 · 18/04/2025 09:40

Just like the women in the 80s who didn't want lesbians in their changing rooms. How quickly the lesbians who now do the same to trans women forget

Lesbians actually are women though.

OP posts:
Kucinghitam · 18/04/2025 09:43
a chorus line broadway GIF by New York City Center

Thing is:

Hitler, Putin, Mussolini, Trump, Farage and the entire readership of the Daily Mail could form a chorus line singing "Sex is binary and immutable, and female humans have their own needs and desires too, oh and by the way water is wet and the Earth is an oblate spheroid" and I would agree with them on these points because it is reality.

BernardBlacksMolluscs · 18/04/2025 09:44

Micaela64 · 18/04/2025 09:40

Just like the women in the 80s who didn't want lesbians in their changing rooms. How quickly the lesbians who now do the same to trans women forget

dunno about that chicken

still don't want to take a poo with some chap in the next cubical. and the reason he should stay out of the ladies is because i don't want him there. and that's good enough. women are entitled to privacy from men. deal with it