Is it possible to be a feminist and also have some empathy for transgender people today?

[HoundOfTheBasketballs]

I’m not going to pretend I’m an expert here but everything feels incredibly polarised. Like, either you’re with us or you’re against us.
Is there no middle ground in this debate?
I am, and always have been a feminist, but I know and like people who are trans and non-binary. I can’t be the only person feeling confused and conflicted, can I?

I joined this thread in good faith but it's abundantly clear that people here are conflating radical trans activists with ordinary trans people.

"They will do anything to maintain the fiction they are real women"

"it won't be acceptable to them because for them the issues is that they believe they were somehow born in the wrong body and are ultimately their desired sex and access to spaces, especially women's spaces are less about safety and more about validation from access to those single sex spaces and the women in them."

"it makes a car jacker very sad when he's told that he cannot take other people's property however entitled to it he may feel" - come off it, car jackers are knowingly and specifically engaged in illegal activity.

The vast majority of trans people are just trying to live their life in a way that makes sense to them.

I actually think the clarification in law is helpful and I welcome that it will be much clearer which spaces are welcoming to those who identify as women or just bio women. I understand why single sex spaces are necessary. I understand that there ARE trans activists out there who thinks in this way and who have sent death threats, rape threats, joined women's sporting teams, lesbian groups etc. But they are a minority of trans people and I think this board has forgotten that. Don't any of you have a trans person in your family? My daughter's maths teacher is trans. He is just a normal every day maths teacher. The person behind the counter in two local shops are trans. They just serve customers. My young person is trans. She never uses female spaces.

Once you start talking about a group as if they are a homogenous group defined by its most radical members, you have dehumanized them and become an ideologue yourself.

I'm just so done with Johnny come latelys telling us to have empathy and find a compromise.

WE DID.

Third spaces have been suggested are not acceptable to trans people.

Here's an analogy that might help you understand why even accepting a single male in our spaces is not a reasonable compromise

www.legalfeminist.org.uk/2024/11/06/sex-peanuts-and-statutory-interpretation/#:~:text=Single%2Dsex%20spaces%20for%20women,to%20leave%20the%20peanuts%20out.

Our local University/ public library has 3 toilet options available, men's, women's and everyone. When I go alone I use the womens ( I'm a biological woman). When I go with my grandchildren ( boys aged 3 and 1) I use the everyone toilet because there is room for the pushchair for the 1 year old, space for the 3 year old to use the potty and a toilet for me. All in the same entirely secure , private, lockable space at the same time. The thing is though, I am using the best toilet for my situation at the time. I would expect a transperson to also use the everyone option because they shouldn't be in the women's ( if they are a transwoman) and might feel unsafe in the mens( if they are a transman) . Transwomen don't want that though, do they. They want the validation of using the women's when there are other options available and, in this case, you don't have to be using the library to pop in to the toilet.

Or how about the women who self exclude from what should be single sex female only spaces because they know they could encounter men in them. Where is their 'dignity' and their right to exist? It might be cultural or religious but it could also be because of past trauma.
I have shared my mother's history before, long story short she was abused as a teen by her own father (physically not sexually) in the bathroom of her childhood home. Many decades later I took her for a day out she went to the loo, came back saying nothing. For the rest of the week she was housebound by a blander infection brought about by having held her pee on that trip because she found the toilet and it was single gender not single sex and she couldn't over come her primal fear of meeting a male in a toilet facility. She was really rather unwell and my kids had a shit half term as granny couldn't take them anywhere. Why does Dave who wants to be Davina have a right to dignity but a woman in her 70s who spent her youth campaigning for women's rights and gay rights and racial equality have to sacrifice hers?

Frighteningly, i've never thought of it this way. You're so right. Next tine I'm told by someone "why is it such a big deal for you to let someone into your space to make that person feel more comfortable" I'm going to retort with, "In that case, I feel very uncomfortable and unsafe when out at night and I see men on quiet roads - are you okay with agreeing that all men should avoid dark roads at night from now on."

Yawn.

I agree that most trans people just want to live their lives as quietly as possible.

But so do most women. We are not the sex that commits the majority of violent crime. But we have been called TERFS, bigots, Trump lovers, imperialists, and god knows what for not letting the violent sex into our safe spaces.
Sick of it now.

"The vast majority of trans people are just trying to live their life in a way that makes sense to them."

Great, fine but why does their desire to be able to "live life in a way that makes sense to them" get to steamroller over women's rights and women's need to have safe single sex spaces? Women just want to be safe, we aren't just being mean here for the sake of it. Literal children have been sexually assaulted in women's spaces by males who identify as women. We can't let our "be kind" socialisation prevent us from taking the necessary steps to protect women and girls and if that means shattering a man's delusion that he is a women then so be it. I know it isn't all transwomen who commit such crimes but it was out tolerance for their presence in our spaces that allowed such crimes to happen.

Does being happy and safe entail your trans friends using women's spaces and facilities, or insisting on pronoun use from strangers? Do they believe they are actually women, and do you encourage that belief in them? Or are they, perhaps, more realistic about what it is they are claiming?

I think most people agree that this should have been the solution proposed all along. Stonewall was cruel to tell trans and non binary people otherwise. Stonewall needs to be held to account for this - and the millions of public money they took perpetuating this cruelty!

Since almost precisely none of those "ordinary trans people" ever thought to speak up and say "not in my name", it's hardly surprising that the movement has been defined by its radical members. Silence means assent.

Men rape women. Men rape men. Some men are fine. Some men are vile. I'd rather have spaces where men are not allowed whether they are dressed as men or wearing pink leggings. If transwomen had grown up as actual women they would know very well why women don't want them in their spaces. They haven't so they don't have a clue what we put up with from men on a daily basis. They've grown up as men and expect women to just comply with what they want. No

The issue is that people outside of one's immediate personal circle have no business, or requirement, in entertaining a stranger's private belief. Everyone is either male or female. 'Non Binary' is just the most recent way of signalling one doesn't want to conform to gender stereotypes.

The problem is that this new 'Non binary' coinage it is a part of a huge social juggernaut that has been intent on riding roughshod over material and biological reality - and has made real casualties of anyone who has dared to stand in its way.

This. I am genuinely stunned that an argument is being made that because not all criminal acts can be prevented, society should abandon any attempts at all to try to reduce the incidence of criminal acts.
The fact that it's being made in relation to this issue – the protection of women from criminal acts by men – shows just how unimportant women are in the view of some people (including women). The facilitation of men's wishes and desires is more important to them than the physical protection of women, evidently. Seriously, god help us.

The problem is that the voices of ordinary trans people have been so quiet that nobody has heard what they have to say. I’ve never seen trans people publicly saying they know that trans women are not actually women and that they resent transactivists pushing an aggressive agenda that is harmful to women and trans people. All that gets publicised is the mantra, “trans women are women,” and anyone arguing that trans women and women are not actually the same thing is told they are transphobic. In all good faith, however frightening, trans people have to stand up for themselves and not be hijacked by people who deny reality.

When you say " deny their existence" what you seem to mean is people not accepting their private belief that they are actually the opposite sex/or no sex at all?

We all know that there are people who exist who believe themselves to be the opposite sex to that which they are.....we just don't have to share that belief......for the reason that it is not true.

'Ordinary Trans People'

Remember when an 'ordinary trans person' was taken to court by an extremist trans person for transphobia?

Or when detransitioners have been harassed and abused for speaking out?

There's been no room to allow 'ordinary trans people' to speak.

The problem being here that it's the extremist position which has been supported and legitimised by senior politicians and a vocal 'ally' group sticking their oar in. And they acted to also try and silence other voices with experience and different vested interests within the trans community. Never mind women (including parents of children identifying as trans).

I think this is a very important point. Amongst feminists there are all sorts of different opinions and views. Expressed loudly.

. @Diverze what’s your experience been like when trying to express your moderate views amongst trans people? Have you found that they are open to debate? Genuine question.

I thought as you did until I heard Dr Upton under oath say that they would deny a female patient the option for single sex care by presenting themselves as physician. I found that disturbing. I expect the Dr’s colleagues had no idea how radical their views were and saw them as perfectly nice until they started expressing the full range of their views in the tribunal. It was an education to me - maybe read the tribunal tweets to see for yourself and then think about some of the views that even “mainstream” or apparently moderate trans people hold.

None of us can judge a book by their cover - for me it’s been the words and deeds that have consolidated my GC views. I genuinely went looking and could only see my views called far right which is offensive. No one ever seemed to mind the removal of the word mother from pregnancy policy - it’s not my whole identity but it is a portion so I’m upset about it being erased. Etc etc If I never hear from the moderate people what can I do?

edited to change about to from

"why does their desire to be able to "live life in a way that makes sense to them" get to steamroller over women's rights and women's need to have safe single sex spaces?"

Did you even read what I bloody wrote?
I don't care about the new ruling. I think it's helpful. I think the clarification of whose spaces are whose is useful. I understand the need for privacy and dignity for all.

Now for the love of God will you understand that most ordinary trans people are not out there intentionally steamrolling your rights or using your spaces? They mostly don't join women's knitting groups or swimming sessions or lesbian dating apps. You are only seeing the ones who do, and they are the radical fringe. I don't know any trans people who use women's toilets of the 6 or 7 trans people I personally know. You are only seeing the videos made by the pervs who get off on wanking in there and posting online how they are defiling women's spaces.

Women have an absolute right to single sex spaces away from males, hooray! AND most trans people are ordinary people who aren't disgusting perverts or radical activists or sex attackers.

Also there is nothing preventing transwomen from competing in sport. They just can't compete in women's sport.

It's like 1984 - you want a world where no one is free. Horrendous.

How on earth did you deduce this from pp’s post?

Being nice is a very overrated feminine virtue.

"the voices of ordinary trans people have been so quiet that nobody has heard what they have to say. I’ve never seen trans people publicly saying they know that trans women are not actually women"

Do you think that might be because a huge number of trans people are a) very young b) autistic which means they inherently find communication challenging ?

Also there have been moderate voices. Rose of Dawn, Miranda Yardley, Debbie Hayton etc. (someone will be along to say Hayton uses female spaces).

"Women have an absolute right to single sex spaces away from males, hooray! AND most trans people are ordinary people who aren't disgusting perverts or radical activists or sex attackers"

I doesn't matter if they are disgusting perverts of not. Their presence in women's spaces provided cover for those that were. Now they will need to use either the spaces for their sex i.e. male or use any third spaces provided.

I do in fact know trans people in real life, they seem nice enough but most of them still believe they should be able to access women's changing rooms and bathrooms because that is the space that aligns with their self perception. They still have a rather "male" lack of empathy when it comes to the wishes of real women.

Nope. Every single one that has used the opposite sex loo is trampling over others rights. They may be lovely people. But they are encroaching on others rights.