Is it possible to be a feminist and also have some empathy for transgender people today?

[HoundOfTheBasketballs]

I’m not going to pretend I’m an expert here but everything feels incredibly polarised. Like, either you’re with us or you’re against us.
Is there no middle ground in this debate?
I am, and always have been a feminist, but I know and like people who are trans and non-binary. I can’t be the only person feeling confused and conflicted, can I?

Because men (of which transwomen are a subset) commit the vast majority of violent and sexual offences.

I agree with you OP. When I saw the headlines this morning, my first thought was thank fuck for that. But this evening my LinkedInfeed had a few posts, with a lot of supportive comments, from kind and gentle people who are heartbroken and scared because of the ruling. (I work in a creative field with lots of younger people). I can see both sides.

I don’t mind sharing public toilets with trans women. I would definitely prefer that to having unisex toilets and sharing with all the men. The fact that a young girl was attacked by a trans woman in a toilet is horrible, but I don’t think it was the toilet’s fault. Predatory men can attack women and girls anywhere, including by just walking into the women’s toilets however they are dressed, so I think the single sex toilets issue is not really about keeping women safe.

I want the peaceful and kind and gentle trans people I know to be able to live their ordinary lives in their chosen gender in a way that doesn’t hurt others, without being harassed or rejected, or humiliated by being forced to use the toilets of their birth gender.

But at the same time I think that trans activists trying to insist on their right to compete in women’s sports or access women’s changing rooms, sensitive services or lesbian groups are completely wrong, and that is why I am glad about todays ruling. It is not reasonable for them to be in those places, and by insisting on it they are trying to trample on women’s rights. I think that the people pushing for access to those places are very different type of people to those who just want to present as female and live in peace.

Did you mean to quote my post? Or perhaps you have misinterpreted it?

I agree with everything you said, so I'm not sure why you're coming for me. A third space should be a reasonable compromise. The fact that some of the people involved in the TRA movement are not reasonable doesn't prevent it from being so. Society can accomodate trans people's legitimate concerns around safety and dignity. It shouldn't capitulate to "validating" them by erasing sex-based provisions. And none of this is women's responsibility to sort out.

Yeah, I accept that. But surely it’s worse that I turn up late and don’t ask questions and engage in debate?

Yes they can attack anywhere but that doesn’t mean we shouldn’t have measures in place to minimise the risks. Do you lock your doors or do you not bother because burglars could still break in if they were determined?

if spaces are single-sex then we can ask for help if we find a man in there and actually get it instead gold being called bigoted for daring to raise the issue! Of course not all toilets are manned all the time, but every little helps!

Its such a weak argument.

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/3348290-It-will-never-happen-resource-thread?page=1
Have a read of this thread. You sound like you're in need of some awareness training.

They do the opposite in the inner city community I live in. My teens fully understand that trans boys and girls uphold gender stereotypes and stifle freedom of expression

So trans women are rapists??

There was a 'break it down for me' thread in FWR that was good if you can find it.

Of course that’s perfectly possible;

I love and admire the trans and non binary people I know. I don’t want to restrict their lives in any way at all.

Happily that is doable whilst still protecting natal women’s rights. Win-win.

Some might be, we can't tell who. So no men please.

Some of them are. That is a fact. There have been transwomen convicted of rape (and then sent to women's prison - horrific).

There are also lots of men who are rapists who would happily exploit the trans loophole to gain access to women's spaces.

I also know and like people who are trans and non binary, and I am also a lifelong feminist. I don’t feel conflicted today in the slightest. I feel overjoyed that common sense has prevailed. I think it was a fair and thoughtful and calm judgement, which finally, at long last, underlines the obvious truth that if you have a category from which people can either make claims of discrimination, or claim rights to particular services or things, then you need clarity and consistency as to what that category means.

Under the Equality Act, ‘sex’ is one such category. And actually, so too, is ‘gender reassignment’. So trans people are just as protected in the law today as they always were - from discrimination on the basis of being trans.

What they cannot do is claim discrimination on the basis of sex - or rather, the sex they ‘identify as’, as opposed to the sex they actually are.

And the trickle down effect of all of this, hopefully, will be a little more pause for thought amongst people who’ve been very happy to chant ‘trans women are women!’ without being able to explain what a woman actually is, then, or why there might be a great deal of political and legal importance attached to being able to do so. Or people who’ve been happy to support the idea of trans children, whilst countless of them have been left infertile and worse by medical interventions they were unable to consent to.

(And yep - I know and like non binary people. I also think the idea of being non binary is the most sexist backwards rubbish ever, invented either by people who genuinely believe ‘blue is for boys pink is for girls’, or by people whilst want to claim an oppressed identity because being white and middle class doesn’t allow for much ‘poor me’ sympathy).

Some of them are yes. The point is, they are men and men, however they identify, commit 98 percent of sec crimes which is one of the main reasons we segregate them from women in spaces where they are vulnerable.

I'm not surprised. Your views do seem rather illiberal. Fancy not thinking that women should have rights.

Fair Play for Women examined individual prison inspection reports and concluded that 41% of transgender women in prison are convicted sex offenders. Its claim was reported by several news outlets

@Thegreatestdancer

https://committees.parliament.uk/writtenevidence/18973/pdf/

Useful reading for you

I do agree with you OP, it really is polarising and it’s difficult to see. Sadly there are some people who become trans too fleetingly, whether it be for kicks, attention, mental health issues, whatever, and yes there does need to be some protection for women from this. For me, the middle ground is that at a point where a person is deep down the road of treatment and surgery, it’s clear that changing gender is so important to them and they cannot live in the body there were born in that they are willing to do this, I can accept it.

I thought the same until a few weeks ago so maybe the best thing to do is to do a bit of your own research and then come back for a chat. I recently listened to a podcast by Nish Kumar to understand more about trans POV only to discover that mothers (in general) were considered "far right" and "tools of far right groups" which I thought was seriously offensive - and was shocked that this seemed to be a mainstream view. For clarity I have never even voted conservative. I heard Dr Upton - under oath - be completely uncompromising about how they would override women's rights to privacy and dignity in the changing room and also in the intimate care of patients. I have read many NHS policies and discovered that there are no single sex spaces for women available in the whole of Scotland or London (and probably the entire country although we are yet to prove this) because of the determination and inflexibility of trans campaigners regarding their access to women's single sex spaces. I saw footage of an NHS union rep saying that it was concerning that women were allowed to express gender critical views and that this wasn't acceptable. On the other hand, while I have seen a lot of tolerance here on mumsnet for people's individual rights on living their best self, I have only heard one transgender person admit they hadn't changed sex. But I haven't yet managed to find any hint of compromise from trans people towards women's rights even though I have tried hard to find it. So when you say you want to find the middle ground, maybe you could go over to Reddit and ask the trans boards where that middle ground is?

If the TW you know want women to be safe then they should respect our rights to single sex spaces, and stay out of them. What has happened today has clarified that only biological women are women. TW are men, they offend at a higher rate than men in general and that’s why we want to keep ALL men out.
It isn’t being aggressive to state biological facts, people can’t change sex, it’s immutable.

I have every empathy for people who are very distressed due to experiencing body dysmorphia. It must be awful to feel like your own body is wrong.

But, that doesn't entitle anyone to enter single sex spaces.

Anyone can register and be on here and no I’m not a man

It’s so disingenuous to pretend we’re calling all transwomen rapists. Safeguarding works on the principle that you plan for the worst and use the evidence available to identify which groups are more likely to offend. That’s men, and evidence shows men who identify as trans are no less risk. It’s that simple.

We don’t think most teacher are paedophiles but we DBS check them and put rules in place to minimise risk all the same.

Believing something doesn’t make it true, people suffering from anorexia believe that they are overweight, do we encourage them in their thinking and let them starve to death by being ‘kind’? Or do we address the problem and get them the help they need, which shouldn’t include surgery or irreversible medication?

I would not want anyone to feel unsafe in this country & it saddens me that many do.

However, as a woman who relies upon same sex care every single day, I rejoiced at the news.

A trans person still has the right to access buildings, bathrooms & businesses just like they did yesterday.

In fact the only minority group who don't seem to "deserve" that right are disabled people like myself.

I would be happy to advocate for the addition of unisex & changing places toilets to be available in all public spaces, so all groups feel comfortable.

Men should NOT be in women's spaces.

'I don’t mind sharing public toilets with trans women. I would definitely prefer that to having unisex toilets and sharing with all the men.'

I am sure that you understand though that just because you don't mind, others most definitely do. And that if others need that space to exclude male people, then their needs should be prioritised above any male person's needs. Male people after all have access to male single sex spaces, regardless of their gender.

The issue is that there is a very important safeguarding reason to exclude all male people. And history has taught us that there should be absolutely no special groups of male people to be excluded from these robust safeguarding measures.

This group of male person, at any stage of transition, has been proven to less of a safeguarding risk of committing sex crime than the general UK male population. Therefore, if we exclude male people in general from a provision, we exclude ALL male people.

While you think it is humiliating for a male to use a male toilet, we are told constantly that male people with transgender identities are using male toilets still. There have been no reports showing that those male people are unsafe. Surely the better approach would have been to ensure that the male toilets and single sex spaces were welcoming to all male people, of all gender identities?

Plus there is a very good reason that female single sex spaces exist and they are not to validate female people's feelings about themselves. So why should they be use to make some male people feel validated?