Meet the Other Phone. A phone that grows with your child.

Meet the Other Phone.
A phone that grows with your child.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

Feminism: Sex and gender discussions
Thread gallery
17
Catabogus · 03/04/2025 10:22

I can read them too although they keep crashing

MarieDeGournay · 03/04/2025 10:24

A reminder that what UCU did not just passively decline to defend the film and its makers:
Statement on Edinburgh AFAF film screening — UCU Edinburgh

nauticant · 03/04/2025 10:24

Wanggren is doing something similar to Upton in the Sandie Peggie hearing, not fully engaging with questions from NC because she does not accept terminology that the questions contain.

nauticant · 03/04/2025 10:26

As an example she says that "gender identity theory" isn't a valid term but believing that gender identity exists is "feminist theory".

borntobequiet · 03/04/2025 10:26

Catabogus · 03/04/2025 09:53

And, on that matter I presume this is the same Grant Buttars (today’s witness), comparing Stock to a pro-paedophile racist: https://revsoc21.uk/2021/11/02/when-is-it-right-for-a-union-to-support-dismissal/

Good God that dreadful article, referring to her throughout as ‘transphobic philosophy professor’ and comparing her case to that of a sexual fantasist (at best) and out and out racist.
I do hope his unpleasantness is exposed.

fanOfBen · 03/04/2025 10:27

(I'm avoiding commenting on live proceedings again, but) I notice that while, at the SP case, there were clearly restrictions on one witness being present at another's evidence, this time, witnesses have been on the call both before and after giving their own evidence. Is this another England/Scotland distinction, or something else?

Ereshkigalangcleg · 03/04/2025 10:34

I wondered about that too, @fanOfBen

SinnerBoy · 03/04/2025 10:35

nauticant · Yesterday 12:31

Counsel for UCU arguing that Wayne and O'Neill taking their case to the ET has the effect on chilling freedom of expression.

WTF?! So in their view, suppressing the film is lovely, with extra kittens and fluffy bunnies, but expressing one's views by screening it is killing freedom of expression.

It's all a bit Ministry of Truth, isn't it?

chilling19 · 03/04/2025 10:35

NC is excoriating as ever

nauticant · 03/04/2025 10:36

I think Wanggren has underestimated NC.

SidewaysOtter · 03/04/2025 10:41

I've only just managed to sort out my internet connection, but I'm getting WFTCHTJ?

nauticant · 03/04/2025 10:43

3 waiting in the lobby so I'd hope that periodically the clerk lets people in.

MarieDeGournay · 03/04/2025 10:47

nauticant · 03/04/2025 10:36

I think Wanggren has underestimated NC.

Shoulda read FWR!Grin

nauticant · 03/04/2025 10:48

Wanggren: "I wouldn't know what male-sexed means."

Ereshkigalangcleg · 03/04/2025 10:48

I think we can all have a shot in the drinking game!

Ereshkigalangcleg · 03/04/2025 10:51

Wonder how much she’s deconstructed the precise wording of all the TRA slogans.

MarieDeGournay · 03/04/2025 10:58

nauticant · 03/04/2025 10:48

Wanggren: "I wouldn't know what male-sexed means."

Because sex is, as we all know thanks to Dr Upton, a...

UCU being taken to tribunal over discrimination for 'gc' views
FlowchartRequired · 03/04/2025 11:00

nauticant · 03/04/2025 10:48

Wanggren: "I wouldn't know what male-sexed means."

Someone needs to get Dawkins in to give a quick rundown of the UBD (Universal Biological Definition) of sex.

AsWithGlad · 03/04/2025 11:02

Catabogus · 03/04/2025 10:22

I can read them too although they keep crashing

I can read them now. Perhaps too many people were attempting to initiate access soon after 10am, or access has been restored.

fanOfBen · 03/04/2025 11:06

Break now till 11:15. Here are my notes in simulation of talking to you all over coffee:
NC addressed Dr Wanggren as Ms Wanggren initially. I hope that was an accident - not cool. (Did notice Shereen getting a chair yesterday though!)
LW repeatedly saying you can find things online, well yes, but that's not how ETs work!
Personally I do not find LW credible, I wonder whether the tribunal does?
LW claiming that a word for gender ideology is "feminist theory", get away!
NC asking LW to confirm that she's listed the most alarming examples of what made trans people feel unsafe (i.e. stickers) - good call! LW bringing in events where gender critical beliefs were put forward. NC confirming that that's the worst, e.g., no trans person assaulted on campus to her knowledge, or gc feminists wearing black balaclavas had surrounded trans people and shouted in their faces... LW now mentioning that students were misgendered. NC going through a list of things, e.g. milkshake thrown at them, that didn't happen to LW's knowledge... ah now listing the things like trying to cancel meetings, which did happen the other way round, in order to confirm that they didn't happen. Good. Lots of "Yes, I would have mentioned that."

"Can you tell the tribunal about a murder of a trans person by a gender critical person anywhere in the world ever?" She can't, but waffles.

"Do you know how many trans people have been murdered in the UK in the last 10 years?" "Do you know how many women have been murdered in the UK in the last 10 years?"

She claims that people have been afraid to come onto campus and students crying because of being misgendered, but saying that she didn't have time to put these incidents in her statement, hmm.

NC digging into messages "Adult Human Female" and "Women don't have penises". Dogwhistle again! Is "women don't have penises" inherently transphobic, asks NC? LW says it's "trans exclusionary" and says that it makes (even) her uncomfortable to see such things.

It's fascinating to see the gender critical view described as "far right" even by a witness in a case brought by two self-avowed Marxists.

LW "I wouldn't even know what male sexed means"
NC seems to be pushing hard to get LW to agree that the view she disagrees with is legitimate - is she actually trying to demonstrate that LW will not agree that any disagreement is legitimate? LW seems to be havering a bit - she knows she's supposed to agree that people can disagree, but doesn't want to say that anything on the gc side is legitimate.

Moving on to dogwhistles...(I got busy and stopped paying attention)

LW insisting there's no debate, no conflict. NC giving Katie Montgomery's talk as an example where it is set up as a debate and UCU picks one side. LW struggling.

AsWithGlad · 03/04/2025 11:09

fanOfBen · 03/04/2025 10:27

(I'm avoiding commenting on live proceedings again, but) I notice that while, at the SP case, there were clearly restrictions on one witness being present at another's evidence, this time, witnesses have been on the call both before and after giving their own evidence. Is this another England/Scotland distinction, or something else?

I don’t know. From watching various programmes on 5USA I conclude that it seems to apply in the US, too.
I wonder how “the warning” which TB wanted to be sure Dr Wanggren knew about relates to that. Presumably that was that a witness shouldn’t discuss her evidence once she has begin until she has finished giving it. (Or his… he etc)

thenoisiesttermagant · 03/04/2025 11:09

Did I just hear the witness Lena Wanggren say she does not accept there are any conflicts between sex -based rights and transgender rights (wants in my opinion) AND THAT UCU ALSO ADOPTS THAT POSITION?

Because I think that was probably unwise if so.

One - if you think there's no conflict of rights at this point you're an unthinking idiot who has subverted critical thinking to unthinking adherence to an ideology.
Two - This also denies the validity of the perception of large numbers of other people, including the most vulnerable such as women prisoners. Which is a bit of an imperial, authoritarian mindset, to say the least. I'm personally guessing that LW might change her mind should she be forced to share a shower block with Karen White or Katie Dolatowski, or Isla Bryson (etc etc).
Three - There have been several court cases that have recognised this conflict, and deemed GC beliefs (that there is a conflict) to be WORIADS. So not allowing those with that view to speak is discriminatory.

thenoisiesttermagant · 03/04/2025 11:13

If UCU adopts a position that inherently doesn't allow WORIADS to be expressed, and takes action to prevent this, that seems pretty slam dunk discrimination against GC members.

Maybe they'll decide anyone GC can't be a member, will enjoy that court case.

fanOfBen · 03/04/2025 11:15

UCU have been completely clear about gender ideology being compulsory and gender criticality unacceptable.

thenoisiesttermagant · 03/04/2025 11:15

Are we all going to have to give birth in darkened underground chambers with no windows and never mention it at all because such a blatant display of biological sex will be upsetting to UE trans identified students? It seems to be the way this is going.

Please create an account

To comment on this thread you need to create a Mumsnet account.

This thread is not accepting new messages.