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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

NHS Policy Audit - working party

1000 replies

KnottyAuty · 10/03/2025 13:02

Following on from Thread #23 of the Peggie v NHS Employment Tribunal. Anyone who wants to help with survey/audit of paperwork against the Equality Act protected characteristics please join here 😊

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Thread gallery
51
TwoLoonsAndASprout · 28/03/2025 13:21

teawamutu · 28/03/2025 11:16

I'm looking at the Royal National Orthopaedic - who seem to have quietly purged any mention of trans, gender or anything else from their site compared to the Wayback Machine version of a year ago. An EDI strategy is mentioned, but not available. No PCs listed (a year ago they were, and were given wrongly ie gender rather than sex).

Single sex accommodation is mentioned, but includes patients who identify into that sex. Fuxake.

I've mailed to request the policies and impact assessments for mixed sex facilities.

That’s quite interesting.

@KnottyAuty, I just uploaded Central London Community Healthcare which has basically nothing on its website at all (about anything much, really - it’s a bit desolate and tumbleweedy). Before you add it to the compilation I’m going to have a rummage around in the way back machine and see if I can find any, well anything.

YellowRoom · 28/03/2025 13:24

SW London and St George's Mental Health done - I can do another if any left to allocate or anyone is struggling for time to get through theirs.

Same sex accommodation
We believe that providing same-sex accommodation is an important part of protecting your right to privacy and ensuring that you are treated with dignity and respect.
All of our services comply with same-sex accommodation regulations. People tell us that being in same-sex accommodation makes a big difference to how comfortable and relaxed they feel while they are in hospital. Having to share accommodation with members of the opposite sex can threaten people’s privacy and dignity at a time when they may already be feeling vulnerable. Some people also have cultural or religious reasons for not wanting to share accommodation with members of the opposite sex.

And...

  1. INPATIENT SERVICES 12.1. ADMISSION TO ADULT WARDS • NHS England policy (see resources) is that trans and intersex service users have equal rights to access single sex wards as any other service user and therefore should be admitted to a ward in accordance with their correct gender.

We were awarded a Silver Employer Award as part of our Stonewall Workplace Equality Index LGBTQIA+ efforts. We are also members of Employers Network for Equality and Inclusion and Stonewall Diversity Champions.

thenoisiesttermagant · 28/03/2025 13:34

YellowRoom · 28/03/2025 13:24

SW London and St George's Mental Health done - I can do another if any left to allocate or anyone is struggling for time to get through theirs.

Same sex accommodation
We believe that providing same-sex accommodation is an important part of protecting your right to privacy and ensuring that you are treated with dignity and respect.
All of our services comply with same-sex accommodation regulations. People tell us that being in same-sex accommodation makes a big difference to how comfortable and relaxed they feel while they are in hospital. Having to share accommodation with members of the opposite sex can threaten people’s privacy and dignity at a time when they may already be feeling vulnerable. Some people also have cultural or religious reasons for not wanting to share accommodation with members of the opposite sex.

And...

  1. INPATIENT SERVICES 12.1. ADMISSION TO ADULT WARDS • NHS England policy (see resources) is that trans and intersex service users have equal rights to access single sex wards as any other service user and therefore should be admitted to a ward in accordance with their correct gender.

We were awarded a Silver Employer Award as part of our Stonewall Workplace Equality Index LGBTQIA+ efforts. We are also members of Employers Network for Equality and Inclusion and Stonewall Diversity Champions.

Bloody hell.

I've read 1984 but I'm beginning to think even Orwell didn't try hard enough to capture the sheer brass balls evil of this sort of duplicity.

It seems to boil down to - if we decide you're worthy you get what you want and we will warp the normal meaning of words to this end, and if you're an inferior human we use you for the benefit of others where it suits us, ignoring your consent, safety and dignity.

I'm beginning to think a legal challenge from a group of patients is needed to back up the nurses' challenges.

What does it even mean? Makes no sense to talk about single sex then switch to gender! Words have no meaning!! (I need a lie down)

TwoLoonsAndASprout · 28/03/2025 13:38

The impression I’m getting from the London (English in general?) trusts is that this is the default:

  1. We definitely are meeting our legal requirements to have single sex spaces.

  2. Transgender people are allowed to use whatever space they want to.

  3. Ergo, we actually have no single sex spaces.

Does this all seem to be coming from that single NHS England document?

KnottyAuty · 28/03/2025 13:39

thenoisiesttermagant · 28/03/2025 13:11

I've just done one that commits to single sex accommodation as mandated by Dept of Health and also commits to 'Foster good relations between people who share protected characteristics and those who do not'.

They do mix up gender and sex a bit though. And say 'patient choice' is relevant (though don't say they'll necessarily do whatever a patient wants).

What I liked best was that there was clarity about single and mixed sex accommodation and an indication that patients would be informed if they were going to be put in a mixed sex environment and their consent sought. Rather than deceiving patients and riding roughshod over consent.

I'm not going to name them here just in case it makes them targeted for word salad male supremacist approaches (instead of their short and clear current policies). Knotty will no doubt think about whether we want to name the best. It does at the very least show inconsistency in approach.

Of course, I'm assuming 'single sex' means actually single sex.

Since Dr Upton thinks he's of the female sex despite his male chromosomes, cells and entire body, physiology and anatomy with absolutely no way ever to empirically demonstrate his claimed femaleness, who knows.

The ability of public sector employees to warp the meaning of words to mean the direct opposite of reality and what the people they serve would expect is one of the most dangerous aspects of all this.

Unfortunately the policies which say Single Sex on the front, are in fact mixed sex by stealth. The mixing up you speak of is part of the smoke and mirrors. Do DM me their name and I will have a look!

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FarriersGirl · 28/03/2025 13:40

@KnottyAuty I have London Ambulance trust half done and have also started NE London Foundation Trust so will hopefully finish later today.

KnottyAuty · 28/03/2025 13:42

thenoisiesttermagant · 28/03/2025 13:34

Bloody hell.

I've read 1984 but I'm beginning to think even Orwell didn't try hard enough to capture the sheer brass balls evil of this sort of duplicity.

It seems to boil down to - if we decide you're worthy you get what you want and we will warp the normal meaning of words to this end, and if you're an inferior human we use you for the benefit of others where it suits us, ignoring your consent, safety and dignity.

I'm beginning to think a legal challenge from a group of patients is needed to back up the nurses' challenges.

What does it even mean? Makes no sense to talk about single sex then switch to gender! Words have no meaning!! (I need a lie down)

Love this - I will defo be quoting your Orwell line in the dossier!
And this is from someone who is interested and informed on the subject - imagine how many people are completely oblivious...

Who would patients complain to?

Edited to add - I am trying to collect good quotes generally but this one chimed with me as I just bought 1984 to read again. Not enough young people been reading this - I wonder if we could persuade AQA to put it on the GCSE curriculum to protect against this in the future?

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thenoisiesttermagant · 28/03/2025 13:52

The Care Quality Commission is the regulator. - are they captured?

A complaint about governance may be the way to go - the most senior in each Trust and / or the governing board / directors should be accountable. It's clearly ludicrous for Trusts to have policies that contradict each other and this is because of poor governance.

I don't really understand - at this point - the governance of NHS trusts but it's pretty clear from the results so far there's been a huge failure of governance if such nonsensical and contradictory policies - with an obvious potential impact on safety of patients - is the norm.

A bit like the policies at Sussex sank them - they broke the law because their policies were approved in an illegal way and their content was also illegal. (disclaimer - as far as I can tell from what I've read, IANAL).

ThatPithySheep · 28/03/2025 14:13

Hi @KnottyAuty I think you had suggested I do Royal Brompton and Harefield NHS Foundation Trust - has it been done? happy to take on another one instead

KnottyAuty · 28/03/2025 14:16

ThatPithySheep · 28/03/2025 14:13

Hi @KnottyAuty I think you had suggested I do Royal Brompton and Harefield NHS Foundation Trust - has it been done? happy to take on another one instead

Sorry - I failed to take a note of that - I'm struggling a bit to keep track.
That one has been done

@SqueakyDinosaur took on 4 so they might be happy to give you one or two of theirs?

Great Ormond Street Hospital For Children NHS Foundation Trust
Homerton Healthcare NHS Foundation Trust
Hounslow and Richmond Community Healthcare NHS Trust
Imperial College Healthcare NHS Trust

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ThatPithySheep · 28/03/2025 14:19

My fault entirely for not being quicker!
@SqueakyDinosaur how about I do Hounslow and Richmond Community Healthcare NHS Trust
Imperial College Healthcare NHS Trust

TwoLoonsAndASprout · 28/03/2025 14:23

TwoLoonsAndASprout · 28/03/2025 13:21

That’s quite interesting.

@KnottyAuty, I just uploaded Central London Community Healthcare which has basically nothing on its website at all (about anything much, really - it’s a bit desolate and tumbleweedy). Before you add it to the compilation I’m going to have a rummage around in the way back machine and see if I can find any, well anything.

Ok, rechecked - they genuinely appear to never have had anything online relating to single sex or trans policies (or policies or EqIAs at all).

CarefulN0w · 28/03/2025 14:26

Re CQC being captured - yes - there are changes afoot at the top, but I don't have a sense yet as to whether they will land up in the land of sanity. I have made a few comments in response to their consultation but worry that the biological realist's version of equality is rather different to a blue-haired activiist.

The following is an extract from draft guidance about the characteristics on which services will be rated. This example is for a rating of 4 - the highest.

Equity in access : 4 - exceptional standard of care
People who may face barriers based on their protected characteristics access the care, support and treatment they need when they need it.

People can access care, treatment and support when they need to and in a way that works for them, which promotes equality, removes barriers or delays and protects their rights.

People can expect their care, treatment and support to be accessible, timely and in line with best practice, quality standards and legal requirements, including those on equality and human rights. This includes making reasonable adjustments for disabled people, addressing communication barriers and having accessible premises.

People can access services when they need to, without physical or digital barriers, including out of normal hours and in an emergency.

Leaders and staff are knowledgeable about, and pre-emptive in preventing discrimination and inequality impacting different groups of people in accessing care, treatment and support, whether this is from wider society, within their organisational processes and culture.

Providers use people’s feedback and other evidence to actively seek to improve access for people more likely to experience barriers or delays in accessing their care.

Services are designed to make them accessible and timely for people who are most likely to have difficulty accessing care. When there are barriers, they are removed.

When services change, equity of access is considered.

People have equal access to care, treatment and support because the provider complies with legal equality and human rights requirements, including avoiding discrimination, considering the needs of people with different protected characteristics and making reasonable adjustments. The provider prioritises, allocates resources and opportunities as needed to tackle inequalities and achieve equity of access.

I suppose my concern is that despite the reference to working within legal requirements, "Leaders and staff pre-emtping discrimination" could look awfully like allowing self-Id'd males into female facilities.

@Knotty - I'll send you the full document for your pile!

KnottyAuty · 28/03/2025 14:38

CarefulN0w · 28/03/2025 14:26

Re CQC being captured - yes - there are changes afoot at the top, but I don't have a sense yet as to whether they will land up in the land of sanity. I have made a few comments in response to their consultation but worry that the biological realist's version of equality is rather different to a blue-haired activiist.

The following is an extract from draft guidance about the characteristics on which services will be rated. This example is for a rating of 4 - the highest.

Equity in access : 4 - exceptional standard of care
People who may face barriers based on their protected characteristics access the care, support and treatment they need when they need it.

People can access care, treatment and support when they need to and in a way that works for them, which promotes equality, removes barriers or delays and protects their rights.

People can expect their care, treatment and support to be accessible, timely and in line with best practice, quality standards and legal requirements, including those on equality and human rights. This includes making reasonable adjustments for disabled people, addressing communication barriers and having accessible premises.

People can access services when they need to, without physical or digital barriers, including out of normal hours and in an emergency.

Leaders and staff are knowledgeable about, and pre-emptive in preventing discrimination and inequality impacting different groups of people in accessing care, treatment and support, whether this is from wider society, within their organisational processes and culture.

Providers use people’s feedback and other evidence to actively seek to improve access for people more likely to experience barriers or delays in accessing their care.

Services are designed to make them accessible and timely for people who are most likely to have difficulty accessing care. When there are barriers, they are removed.

When services change, equity of access is considered.

People have equal access to care, treatment and support because the provider complies with legal equality and human rights requirements, including avoiding discrimination, considering the needs of people with different protected characteristics and making reasonable adjustments. The provider prioritises, allocates resources and opportunities as needed to tackle inequalities and achieve equity of access.

I suppose my concern is that despite the reference to working within legal requirements, "Leaders and staff pre-emtping discrimination" could look awfully like allowing self-Id'd males into female facilities.

@Knotty - I'll send you the full document for your pile!

Thanks for this

When services change, equity of access is considered.

This is useful statement tho - my point is that there is a long established precedent for single sex accommodation. There are good reasons for it and NHS targets related to it! So removal by stealth is not acceptable. And especially when none of the obvious problems have been pre-empted or even considered in almost all cases...

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thenoisiesttermagant · 28/03/2025 14:56

I wonder if there's a correlation with the amount of pages of bollocks word salad text in policies (and by extension cost in staff time) and anti-woman bias?

The deception aspect I think often is overlooked but it's very much against the Nolan principles, and the fact these policies are essentially saying any man can go wherever he wants if he says some magic words, regardless of the feelings or needs or protected characteristics of other patients is often buried in a wall of text, I presume deliberately.

There seems to be absolutely no consequence to driving a horse and carriage through the Nolan principles.

With the one I did all the policies were easy to find, short and clear and seemed comprehensible if you assume words mean what they say. I.e single sex actually is single sex. (I realise we are a long way from really being able to assume that though).

ThatPithySheep · 28/03/2025 15:12

If anyone is covering Kingston, someone did an FOI for them last year
https://www.whatdotheyknow.com/request/gender_reassignment_andor_transg_39/response/2688734/attach/2/Delivery%20of%20Same%20Sex%20Accommodation%20Policy.pdf?cookie_passthrough=1

You will not be shocked to hear that their single sex policy is that wards must absolutely be single sex, but if someone is proposing to change gender they must be accommodated on their preferred ward

https://www.whatdotheyknow.com/request/gender_reassignment_andor_transg_39/response/2688734/attach/2/Delivery%20of%20Same%20Sex%20Accommodation%20Policy.pdf?cookie_passthrough=1

teawamutu · 28/03/2025 15:16

ThatPithySheep · 28/03/2025 15:12

If anyone is covering Kingston, someone did an FOI for them last year
https://www.whatdotheyknow.com/request/gender_reassignment_andor_transg_39/response/2688734/attach/2/Delivery%20of%20Same%20Sex%20Accommodation%20Policy.pdf?cookie_passthrough=1

You will not be shocked to hear that their single sex policy is that wards must absolutely be single sex, but if someone is proposing to change gender they must be accommodated on their preferred ward

The FOI site is gold. Ermine Amies, if you walk among us - thank you for your service 🙌

ThatPithySheep · 28/03/2025 15:26

Hounslow and Richmond Community Healthcare NHS Trust seems to have combined with Kingston, which may explain why everything I can find for them relates to Kingston!

KnottyAuty · 28/03/2025 15:41

ThatPithySheep · 28/03/2025 15:26

Hounslow and Richmond Community Healthcare NHS Trust seems to have combined with Kingston, which may explain why everything I can find for them relates to Kingston!

Interesting - quite a few mergers have emerged during this search - iykwim!?

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ThatPithySheep · 28/03/2025 16:03

Done Imperial, it was hard finding anything on their website but the amazing Ermine Amies had done an FoI request which had everything I needed.

They had a microagressions toolkit that notes starting at a transwoman in a female toilet is a microagression as it implies they are not supposed to be there. Well, no shit sherlock!

teawamutu · 28/03/2025 16:11

ThatPithySheep · 28/03/2025 16:03

Done Imperial, it was hard finding anything on their website but the amazing Ermine Amies had done an FoI request which had everything I needed.

They had a microagressions toolkit that notes starting at a transwoman in a female toilet is a microagression as it implies they are not supposed to be there. Well, no shit sherlock!

Hadn't even thought to check for training materials like that. Great tip.

KnottyAuty · 28/03/2025 16:33

Anyone on here a computer boffin who can code a letter generating website please auto-linking to MP's address if postcode entered? Or do you know one?!

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TwoLoonsAndASprout · 28/03/2025 16:40

ThatPithySheep · 28/03/2025 16:03

Done Imperial, it was hard finding anything on their website but the amazing Ermine Amies had done an FoI request which had everything I needed.

They had a microagressions toolkit that notes starting at a transwoman in a female toilet is a microagression as it implies they are not supposed to be there. Well, no shit sherlock!

There was an Australian public awareness ad campaign that said the same thing. If I remember, it had a lone woman who started to get into an elevator, saw there was a (huge, obvious) trans-identified man in there, and got back out again. This was labelled as horrible and bigoted, rather than the woman making a snap risk-assessment and deciding she would be safer taking the stairs.

KnottyAuty · 28/03/2025 16:41

TwoLoonsAndASprout · 28/03/2025 16:40

There was an Australian public awareness ad campaign that said the same thing. If I remember, it had a lone woman who started to get into an elevator, saw there was a (huge, obvious) trans-identified man in there, and got back out again. This was labelled as horrible and bigoted, rather than the woman making a snap risk-assessment and deciding she would be safer taking the stairs.

Isn't being a male in a female toilet or changing room a "macro-aggression"?
I mean let's start calling it for what it is right?

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FarriersGirl · 28/03/2025 16:58

I've just sent in the form for London Ambulance Service it is a bit sparse as the website has nothing on policies at all and although I got the EDI policy emailed they have not responded to my request for transgender policies etc. If I do get anything I'll re do it. The one for NE London is part done and I've emailed today to see if I can get the trans policy as it does not seem to be available elsewhere.

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