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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

NHS Policy Audit - working party

1000 replies

KnottyAuty · 10/03/2025 13:02

Following on from Thread #23 of the Peggie v NHS Employment Tribunal. Anyone who wants to help with survey/audit of paperwork against the Equality Act protected characteristics please join here 😊

OP posts:
Thread gallery
51
TwoLoonsAndASprout · 28/03/2025 07:31

Chrysanthemum5 · 28/03/2025 07:28

@TwoLoonsAndASprout if we want to imagine the effect of the 'urinary leash' we only need to think back to Covid when public loos were all closed. So many women found our lives restricted the area where we could go and return home without needing the loo. Whereas men had more freedom - I'm basing that on the number I saw happily urinating in public 🤢

Oh man, I didn’t even think of that - so true.

TwoLoonsAndASprout · 28/03/2025 07:32

Ereshkigalangcleg · 28/03/2025 01:18

A poster a few years ago FOIed a number of trusts, I think in Wales, for their EIAs and the ones who bothered to provide them didn’t appear to understand what an equality impact of a policy was supposed to be about. As you mention, they simply assessed their trans policy in relation to how it would advance “trans rights”. Not how it would affect other protected characteristics. A feature rather than a bug.

Ooo, that sounds like a resource we could make use of. Any ideas about how we would we go about finding the thread/poster?

Bunpea · 28/03/2025 08:31

A possible nutty idea about publicising the work from this working party, particularly now that the Scottish results are available:
I notice Justine Roberts is on Times Radio this evening at 6.15pm.

I don’t know what her view is of this workstream, but wonder if it is worth raising with her to see if she would like to mention it? Does anyone here know her personally?

Times Radio
Today’s highlights:

12.30pm: Historian David Reynolds discusses Winston Churchill’s “Iron Curtain” speech
2.15pm: Baroness Grey-Thompson, Paralympic legend and campaigner
6.15pm: Mumsnet founder Justine Roberts on running the popular forum for 25 years

Bannedontherun · 28/03/2025 08:50

@KnottyAuty It is the. Leicester university Trust.

”Trans people who have attained legal recognition must always be accommodated
according to their acquired gender, regardless of their stage of treatment. Trans
people who have not obtained legal recognition, but who have commenced
permanent transition to their new gender, must never be required to use
accommodation and facilities (including toileting and bathing facilities) intended for members of their birth gender.”

It also goes on to say that they cannot be excluded from protected occupations.

TwoLoonsAndASprout · 28/03/2025 08:58

Bannedontherun · 28/03/2025 08:50

@KnottyAuty It is the. Leicester university Trust.

”Trans people who have attained legal recognition must always be accommodated
according to their acquired gender, regardless of their stage of treatment. Trans
people who have not obtained legal recognition, but who have commenced
permanent transition to their new gender, must never be required to use
accommodation and facilities (including toileting and bathing facilities) intended for members of their birth gender.”

It also goes on to say that they cannot be excluded from protected occupations.

By this point I should really stop being surprised by any of this. So grateful I can channel my outrage here into something useful.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 28/03/2025 09:03

So this is a FOI to the Welsh Government.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 28/03/2025 09:07

The original thread by @thatdamnedwomanis rather like this one, a variety of organisations are looked at, some are FOIed by various posters.

TwoLoonsAndASprout · 28/03/2025 09:29

Bunpea · 28/03/2025 08:31

A possible nutty idea about publicising the work from this working party, particularly now that the Scottish results are available:
I notice Justine Roberts is on Times Radio this evening at 6.15pm.

I don’t know what her view is of this workstream, but wonder if it is worth raising with her to see if she would like to mention it? Does anyone here know her personally?

Times Radio
Today’s highlights:

12.30pm: Historian David Reynolds discusses Winston Churchill’s “Iron Curtain” speech
2.15pm: Baroness Grey-Thompson, Paralympic legend and campaigner
6.15pm: Mumsnet founder Justine Roberts on running the popular forum for 25 years

It would be lovely, but I suspect her speaking about it might be seen as “taking a side.” I don’t know what her personal views are, but I think in order for MN to carry on being a place where we can do this sort of thing, the site itself needs to be seen to be non-partisan.

TwoLoonsAndASprout · 28/03/2025 09:32

Ereshkigalangcleg · 28/03/2025 09:07

The original thread by @thatdamnedwomanis rather like this one, a variety of organisations are looked at, some are FOIed by various posters.

@Ereshkigalangcleg you’ve been busy this morning - putting me to shame, I’ve barely finished my cereal! Awesome work!

Ereshkigalangcleg · 28/03/2025 10:24

Thank you! Will be interesting to note if anything has changed since then.

TwoLoonsAndASprout · 28/03/2025 10:51

More from CNWLondon for you @KnottyAuty:

I have one SS policy and two transgender policies (one patients one staff).

In their Impact Assessments, NONE of them considered any protected characteristic other than gender identity to be relevant.

No consultation was done for the SS policy; for the two trans policies almost all consultation was with LGBT+ groups and individuals (incl Stonewall, on a policy written Feb 2024).

TwoLoonsAndASprout · 28/03/2025 10:52

TwoLoonsAndASprout · 28/03/2025 10:51

More from CNWLondon for you @KnottyAuty:

I have one SS policy and two transgender policies (one patients one staff).

In their Impact Assessments, NONE of them considered any protected characteristic other than gender identity to be relevant.

No consultation was done for the SS policy; for the two trans policies almost all consultation was with LGBT+ groups and individuals (incl Stonewall, on a policy written Feb 2024).

Oh and obviously as a result there are no possible negative impacts found.

teawamutu · 28/03/2025 11:16

I'm looking at the Royal National Orthopaedic - who seem to have quietly purged any mention of trans, gender or anything else from their site compared to the Wayback Machine version of a year ago. An EDI strategy is mentioned, but not available. No PCs listed (a year ago they were, and were given wrongly ie gender rather than sex).

Single sex accommodation is mentioned, but includes patients who identify into that sex. Fuxake.

I've mailed to request the policies and impact assessments for mixed sex facilities.

umbel · 28/03/2025 11:21

This all tracks back to Annex B of this document from NHS England, 2019.The wording I am finding in all of these policies - SS and Trans patients, is identical/almost identical to what is here: https://www.england.nhs.uk/statistics/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2021/05/NEW-Delivering_same_sex_accommodation_sep2019.pdf

https://www.england.nhs.uk/statistics/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2021/05/NEW-Delivering_same_sex_accommodation_sep2019.pdf

teawamutu · 28/03/2025 11:32

umbel · 28/03/2025 11:21

This all tracks back to Annex B of this document from NHS England, 2019.The wording I am finding in all of these policies - SS and Trans patients, is identical/almost identical to what is here: https://www.england.nhs.uk/statistics/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2021/05/NEW-Delivering_same_sex_accommodation_sep2019.pdf

Yep, that's exactly the wording. On a policy from 2023 when I'm fairly sure we'd started to make some waves.

it's the attempt to cover it up that pisses me off most.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 28/03/2025 11:48

The thread I posted upthread from 2019 is eye opening. The squirming of the Welsh Government! They sent her a link to Helen Webberleys website!

TwoLoonsAndASprout · 28/03/2025 12:18

Ereshkigalangcleg · 28/03/2025 11:48

The thread I posted upthread from 2019 is eye opening. The squirming of the Welsh Government! They sent her a link to Helen Webberleys website!

Oh criminy. That thread is just this one, but 6 years ago. No thought for any protected group except one extra special one.

And here we still are, women getting it in the teeth.

As @teawamutu said, fuxake.

KnottyAuty · 28/03/2025 12:37

teawamutu · 28/03/2025 11:16

I'm looking at the Royal National Orthopaedic - who seem to have quietly purged any mention of trans, gender or anything else from their site compared to the Wayback Machine version of a year ago. An EDI strategy is mentioned, but not available. No PCs listed (a year ago they were, and were given wrongly ie gender rather than sex).

Single sex accommodation is mentioned, but includes patients who identify into that sex. Fuxake.

I've mailed to request the policies and impact assessments for mixed sex facilities.

Gosh - if you don't get anything please do make PDFs of the historic stuff and include them in the uploads. Very interesting!

OP posts:
KnottyAuty · 28/03/2025 12:39

umbel · 28/03/2025 11:21

This all tracks back to Annex B of this document from NHS England, 2019.The wording I am finding in all of these policies - SS and Trans patients, is identical/almost identical to what is here: https://www.england.nhs.uk/statistics/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2021/05/NEW-Delivering_same_sex_accommodation_sep2019.pdf

Quite! I emailed them at the start of the week when I realised that England seems to have been given a strong steer smoking gun unlike Scotland where the SG seems to have kept their hands cleaner by sending huge funds to lobby groups to do the work for them. Who knew it was England that would be more frugal with fiscal spending?!

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KnottyAuty · 28/03/2025 13:11

Wow! Just done a quick check and we are half way through! Well done everyone - I'm feeling rather tardy having done my downloads but not completed the survey which I will do tomorrow. So impressed with you all 😎

Here are the ones left to go - if any are yours and you are struggling for time then do shout and I'm sure someone else can pick things up:

Barnet Enfield and Haringey Mental Health NHS Trust
Great Ormond Street Hospital For Children NHS Foundation Trust
Homerton Healthcare NHS Foundation Trust
Hounslow and Richmond Community Healthcare NHS Trust
Imperial College Healthcare NHS Trust
King’s College Hospital NHS Foundation Trust
Kingston and Richmond NHS Foundation Trust (formerly Kingston Hospital NHS Foundation Trust)
London Ambulance Service NHS Trust
London North West University Healthcare NHS Trust
North East London NHS Foundation Trust
South London and Maudsley NHS Foundation Trust
South West London and St George’s Mental Health NHS Trust
University College London Hospitals NHS Foundation Trust
West London NHS Trust
Whittington Health NHS Trust

Edited to add that it took about a week to do Scotland, and you've just tanked through the same number in about 3 days! Love that!

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thenoisiesttermagant · 28/03/2025 13:11

I've just done one that commits to single sex accommodation as mandated by Dept of Health and also commits to 'Foster good relations between people who share protected characteristics and those who do not'.

They do mix up gender and sex a bit though. And say 'patient choice' is relevant (though don't say they'll necessarily do whatever a patient wants).

What I liked best was that there was clarity about single and mixed sex accommodation and an indication that patients would be informed if they were going to be put in a mixed sex environment and their consent sought. Rather than deceiving patients and riding roughshod over consent.

I'm not going to name them here just in case it makes them targeted for word salad male supremacist approaches (instead of their short and clear current policies). Knotty will no doubt think about whether we want to name the best. It does at the very least show inconsistency in approach.

Of course, I'm assuming 'single sex' means actually single sex.

Since Dr Upton thinks he's of the female sex despite his male chromosomes, cells and entire body, physiology and anatomy with absolutely no way ever to empirically demonstrate his claimed femaleness, who knows.

The ability of public sector employees to warp the meaning of words to mean the direct opposite of reality and what the people they serve would expect is one of the most dangerous aspects of all this.

TwoLoonsAndASprout · 28/03/2025 13:14

@thenoisiesttermagant

The ability of public sector employees to warp the meaning of words to mean the direct opposite of reality and what the people they serve would expect is one of the most dangerous aspects of all this.

Orwell would be so proud. Mixed sex is single sex. We have always been at war with Eastasia, etc etc.

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