Britain’s lost boys Sonia Sodha

[WarriorN]

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2025/mar/09/jobless-isolated-fed-misogynistic-porn-where-is-the-love-for-britains-lost-boys?CMP=ShareiOSAppp_Other

I do agree but feel it's men who need to step up here

Boys either want to be women or are turning to Tate et al neither of which is ultimately good for women and girls. Victoria Smith has been saying similar recently.

If you're not into sport there's so few decent role models or movements for boys. From experience they go off track at a very young age too.

Yes, boys respond well to strong male role models who can model masculinity and leadership. They like the idea of survival skills, of engaging with the wild, camping, making fires, stalking, acts of physical strength ( lifting, pulling, hauling, building).

Boys and men need to feel they can offer something positive as male people; something that males can do well; that contributes to the welfare of the family, the group, society. They need to feel some masculine pride,

I think you have to be careful with stereotyping males, because (particularly if you listen to Gender: A Wider Lense) you also have the "sensitive" male, and you run the risk, particularly in this day and age, of thinking that they must be born in the wrong body.

I've heard sometimes about "pre-gay" children, where it is possible to identify homosexual children before puberty, nowadays those children would be considered "trans".

Essentially I don't think there is a hard and fast rule, and that for boys (as well as girls) there needs to be more diversity in role models.

And much of that success is based on parental expectation, many first generation parents drum habits of study and application into their kids because they see education as a step forward. How many boys are let down by parental attitudes that excuse laziness, don’t have a positive view of the value of education and who allow their kids to grow up with self limiting and thereby self fulfilling expectations.

But men get their "own spaces" everywhere - in SO many areas it's all men. If they WANT to be away from us (and I've rarely found that they do), then they can be and do. We don't chase them, harass them, threaten them, scare them, SA them: they do that to us. So WE need our private places, not them.
Quite apart from the fact that we NEED privacy sometimes. They may do in a toilet cubicle, but otherwise I've been both wanted and needed by boys and men.

I disagree. Everything that used to be a male area is now mixed because it was deemed sexist to keep women out. Pubs, working men’s club, sports club, Scouts…

In trying to force men to be more unisex/feminine/whatever you want to call it, we’ve done nothing but cause an identity crisis where they’ve rebelled by going too far one way (Tate lovers) or the other (gender identity madness)

Yes. I don’t know if it’s still like this but when I was at primary school the boys had all the space in the playground to play football and the girls had to stay on the edges. They wouldn’t let us join in the football and if we tried to use the space the dinner ladies would tell us to stop getting in the way.

Edit to say this was in the late 80s/early 90s, and it was like that when my DDs were at primary school in the 2010s.

Scouts isn't now mixed because it was deemed sexist to keep girls out but because not enough boys were signing up and the groups would otherwise fold.

@NoraLuka - yes, it's still like this - there's been a lot of research done around it - I think there was an MNer that got quite involved with making public spaces for children more girl-friendly. Even in my kid's school where they do their best, and many of the girls are very sporty, it's the boys that take over the playground, because the girls want to play, but they don't want to play rough.

I think it's hard for me, as a gender-non-conforming woman, with variously gender-non-conforming relatives and children to understand this whole 'men must be men' thing - when I hear my eldest playing games online with his friends, and they're absolute sweethearts to each other as often as they're yelling and insulting each other. Or my youngest boy (tween) who's room is stuffed to the gills with soft toys, and who spends his time baking and making models. Yet both also run around the house with play swords and have an extensive nerf collection.

Having said all of that, I've also seen the result of testosterone supplementation, and agree that it has more of an effect than some would like to admit - cold and angry.

I agree with a poster up thread - I think we've got to be really careful with the 'boys are a bit like dogs needing regular off lead activity' and girls are more relationship oriented. Where does it leave the 'sensitive' read a book, physically unco-ordinated boys like my son or the energetic, outdoorsy girls like my niece?

I think we also need to be aware that the gaming community have a high ratio of autistic/ socially awkward boys who often have a history of being alienated from 'jock' type activities/ groups. Unfortunately this group often spend a lot of their time online and are more vulnerable to various extremist ideologies - whether incel/Andrew Tate/ religious extremism inspired. Equally - the last thing we need to do to males who don't fit stereotypical masculine pursuits - they prefer chess to football, or Minecraft to adventure scouts - is imply they're somehow not boys. The high number of autistic boys adopting a trans identity is no doubt linked to this rigid way of framing gender.

Essentially , we all know It's difficult to separate nurture and nature but I'm not sure reinforcing the traditional stereotypes feminists fought hard to dismantle is the way to improve male self-esteem/educational outcomes - or rather it's not if you care about females and non-conforming males. Much better to offer a wide range of activities/ learning opportunities to all kids/ teens and try and recruit good role models of either sex to inspire them.

I am truly sorry if you are reflecting on your past actions and need to be accountable for them. That must be difficult.

Nonetheless, I reject the use of “we”. Your mileage and that of others may vary etc.

Having single-sex spaces for men strengthens the argument for female single-sex spaces.

A lot of men will accept female-only spaces if they have male-only spaces they can go to.

My son learnt to be the nice man he is from his dad. Having raised a boy and taught them I agree with those that say boys need good male role models. It doesn’t have to be a dad, but a grandfather, uncle or family friend. In past times apprentices learned from their mentors, now I think many can’t be bothered with training them and the paperwork and attitudes involved.

i remember seeing a programme about an area of London and a local guy who was introduced as a role model to local boys from single parent families.He had done time for tax evasion and had loads of children with different women, most of whom he never saw. At the time I was shocked this was the best available role model.

The constant negativity about boys doesn’t help. It’s even rife on Mumsnet, look at the “gender disappointment” threads for a start. Boys are second best, the consolation prize. I’m sure that’s because of the negative stereotyping, boys are noisy/smelly/boisterous etc…I’m constantly amazed at how ingrained those stereotypes are.
A poster earlier on the thread pointed out the lack of male nursery staff, but there are often threads about how inappropriate/dangerous some mums feel it is to have men in nurseries!

This thread makes it very easy to see why boys have issues, its full of those same stereotypes that posters don't want to exist.

Society has moved on, unfortunately the attitudes towards males has not.

If you want a society where boys and men can show emotions you need to make a society where men and boys are not belittled for doing so.

You want boys to read give them a place to do so.
Some boys want to read but would love to be able to do so without the labels that society (males and females) place on them.

Look at DnD, Warhammer etc. both need the ability to read and think yet society sees them as nerds and dorks or whatever the current phrases are.

Moving away from traditional values has not helped and has seen a removal of the father figure in their lives and has left a gap that is wide open for influencers such as tate to step in.
Even those that are relatively good (Jordan Peterson) are derided on here for having the wrong values or not having exactly the same values that posters want him to have. Even when he talks about males having responsibility because its based in religion.

I also think boys and men need their own spaces, like Scouts and Men's Sheds - but these have been forced to open to women, too.
I agree with the first part of this (and would also add that these organisations are different from the men's club type of men's spaces). But the Scouts were not forced to open up to girls. Iirc, there was a volunteer shortage and they started allowing girls in in order to tap into the pool of female volunteers.

noblegiraffe has given the reason for why scouts was opened up to girls, upthread, nothing to do with female volunteers as they have always been able to volunteer.

Harry Potter!

Remove the stigma of reading comics, graphic novels and manga. and allow them to be used as a gateway to books and novels.
Harry Bloody potter can do one.

My own DF was an uncle figure to one of our neighbours whose father left the family. He kept both them boys on the straight and narrow. They helped him in allotment and in his shed. Allowing them with permission from their mum to use tools, saws and drilling etc. They also helped him do up a tractor. Lol
They still visit weekly now. They both say that without my DF steady presence they would have got in trouble. He listens to their problems, still does now.
Now people would view his influence with suspicion.

This is what noblegiraffe said:
Scouts isn't now mixed because it was deemed sexist to keep girls out but because not enough boys were signing up and the groups would otherwise fold.
I admit I misremembered the reason, but my point was that scouts were not forced to open up to girls - they chose to.

I agree that they weren't forced, but I was correcting as to why.

Harry Potter was released 20 years ago and despite undoubtedly having had a huge impact on reading, the gap between boys and girls is still large. And if anyone wants to access Harry Potter these days they can watch the films (or shortly the Netflix series).

Jamie Smart is doing amazing things to encourage younger readers with his comics (and tbh he's a pretty good role model too, incredibly hard working at encouraging young children to give writing and comic book drawing a try).

Well, the footballing boys had all the space in the playground. The other boys didn't, and were pushed to the edges.

A poster earlier on the thread pointed out the lack of male nursery staff, but there are often threads about how inappropriate/dangerous some mums feel it is to have men in nurseries!

The issue is, that it is. I don't know what do do about that, but when the vast, vast majority of violent and sexual crimes are committed by men, that's the problem to be solved first, then we'll feel comfortable leaving them alone with our babies.

Look at DnD, Warhammer etc. both need the ability to read and think yet society sees them as nerds and dorks or whatever the current phrases are.

Not sure what your point here is - my AD&D group is 4:2 men to women, and a mixed bag of nerds, bikers, high-flyers and people in caring professions. Is getting the kind of kids who want to spend their weekends painting little models and measuring with pointy sticks to read really the issue though? Or is it the ones without a clear tribe?

For younger kids, the majority Manga is not appropriate (and the eco system makes it hard to keep kids safe from the innappropriate stuff) - and by the time you've got to an age when it is, I'd say it's too late.

Dav Pilkey (Dogman, Captain Underpants etc. ) attracted my reluctant reader - the kids books were too boring, but the pages of text in a normal mid-reader felt intimidating.

Weekly beanos helped too - so I do agree that the material needs to be accessible, but I'm not sure there is the stigma that you think there is - again, my youngest was encouraged to bring in the books he wanted to read (as he's got older, that has included age-appropriate Manga)