Lesbian mistaken for trans woman in woman's bathroom in Arizona

[Christinapple]

https://www.advocate.com/news/lesbian-mistaken-transgender-arizona-walmart

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/masculine-looking-cis-woman-confronted-by-cops-in-walmart-restroom-kalaya-morton-demands-justice-video/ar-AA1AdWpn

But I thought people "can always tell"?

It also led to the irony the only males in the bathroom were two male police officers who were notified by a store employee who mistakenly thought a male had entered the woman's toilets.

"In an alarming incident at a Tucson, Arizona Walmart, 19-year-old Kalaya Morton*, a Black cisgender lesbian, was confronted by two male sheriff’s deputies while using the women’s restroom, sparking outrage and a demand for accountability.
Morton, who identifies as masculine-presenting or a “stud,” recounted the humiliating encounter that occurred when a store employee erroneously assumed she was a transgender woman. The saga began innocuously enough: Morton had entered the restroom with her ex-girlfriend, who was kindly handing her a tampon— an act of friendship that, unfortunately, soon spiraled into something far more troubling. In an exclusive interview with The Advocate, Morton detailed her shock when the two deputies barged in, shining flashlights into the restroom stall.

“You have to get out of here. You have to come out. We need to talk to you.” Imagine trying to pee in peace, only to have the police storm in like it’s an episode of Cops: Restroom Edition.
“I’m still using the restroom. I’m sitting down, I’m peeing. What is the issue?,” Morton incredulously told the deputies as she sat there.
Now, while most people hope for a streamlined bathroom experience, Morton was treated more like a suspect than a bathroom user. The deputies apparently needed to crack the case of “Who Looks Like a Man in the Ladies’ Room,” a particularly absurd mystery, if you ask us."

This

Christinapple

Late to the party but
A masculine presenting lesbian (sorry CIS-lesbian) gets pulled up for presenting as masculine.

Surely this is a win?

She looks like she wants to and does it so well that she she has been picked up for it.

By sex check do you mean checking for a penis or lack of one?

How about the adults in the building all agree that if they have their own penis or during any prior period had their own penis that they go to the bathroom for males?

If they are unsure they can ask their family or even their GP to check if they had their own penis?

Most women will have worked out what body parts are what but they too can ask family or their GP.

Then there is no need for any confusion as to which bathroom is to be used.

On the contrary. Studies show that individual genderless toilets are the MOST DANGEROUS for women. This has been well and truly comprehensively proven.

Maths is not my strongest point, but isn't 150:14400 around 1%, not 0.01%?

So if transwomen are 0.1% of the population, their sexual offending rate is ten times the male average??

Except that at the moment, the typical responses female people
had available to us have been removed. Those responses were to walk out, to warn all other female people in the toilet there is a male there, to leave and tell other female people to not go in and to go and seek help. And so on.

Those responses have been signposted as being hate and being worthy of condemnation, so female people have now been conditioned to not react in the ways that allowed us to make the spaces safer. That recent ‘education and conditioning ‘ needs to be gotten rid of.

The solution is not to reduce the usability of the toilet spaces. It is simply to publicise heavily that no male people should be in those spaces, and that all male people should be welcoming to other male people in their male single sex toilets. And to leave the arrangement of female toilet cubicles and the public spaces in that toilet area should be left as is too.

Tell us you don’t understand statistics without etc.

Did you just go with men are people too?

Your missing the word women

The penis attached to the human places them in the male sex class.

People love to say they can “always spot a transgendered person”. No they can’t. So simply banning trans people from toilets doesn’t work. You’d have to enforce it.

Says a lot about this type of man that he can't accept women saying "no", and rather than voluntarily refraining from entering out of respect for women and girls, will barge his way into women's spaces anyway.

Even more reason to punish this behaviour.

There is ZERO evidence transwomen are at any risk. Indeed and in fact, transwomen and gay men have often said the worst transwomen get is a smirk. There is ZERO evidence of any attacks on a transwoman in the males, and believe me, they'd rub it in our faces and never let us forget it if it did.

However there is evidence transwomen have sexually attacked women in the females. The risk with transwomen in the females is greater than any (non-existent) risk a transwoman faces in the males.

Also, even if transwomen were at risk in the males, why is that OUR problem to solve? Why the fuck do you think women should be HUMAN SHIELDS for male on male violence? Let the males sort it out, it is NOT...OUR....RESPONSIBILITY.

Females have a right not just to safety, but privacy and dignity away from the male gaze, @Stefanodad . It is hard-nosed and disrespectful to say the fox may be attacked by the other foxes, so put him in the hen house. We have a RIGHT to our privacy and dignity, and male on male violence is NOT OUR FUCKING PROBLEM TO SOLVE!

I like the privacy of fully self-contained cubicles (with sinks). But to insist on these everywhere would mean a great reduction in the number of toilets available in many places where space is already more limited than is ideal.

Anybody have a good reason why tampon sharing between ex partners (whether or not the person with the tampon ready to hand over would describe themselves as cisgender or not) is apparently now a gesture of female friendship? I'd rather buy another round. Or find somebody who isn't someone I used to shag to hang around with.

There is a very handy chart around but I am not able to locate it. Maybe someone can post it.

Using the census data and the stats I posted, I believe that the ratio of male sex offenders who is identify as female is much higher than the found in the general UK population. It was something like 1 in 585 male people with transgender identities using the census data.

The rate is nowhere near that high for the general male UK population.

However, all need to say is that that group of male people do not have a rate of committing sex offences lower than the general UK male population. And it doesn’t even approach the female sex offending pattern. Therefore they should never have been allowed in the female single sex spaces and should be treated, for safeguarding needs of female people and children, as their sex. Ie. male and never female.

It works by allowing us to call the police if needed. It always worked until the last 10 years ago.

Trans activists did this by campaigning to enter our spaces, then campaigning to have the rules changed to allow them to enter as their gender identity and finally having 'terfs' arrested instead of them arrested.

I am bemused that you think a system that worked so well for decades/a century, until 10 years ago, is now suddenly 'unworkable'.

It has happened to me, several times. I'd rather be challenged again in the loo every day than have one little girl suffer like Lennon Dolatowski's victim did.

There are currently 151 in prison at that time.

Of course, there are those who are also released from prison who are not included in those statistics. And those who are awaiting trial.

And I think the stat that you need is 14400 : of all the male people in the UK vs the current number of male
transgender people in prison for sex offences : all the male people with transgender identities as stated as female in the census.

Quick! Capitalise on this event! Open the flood gates!

Is it ok for male cops to enter the women's toilet based on what someone thought? Wouldn't it at least be better to send in female officers?

Let me fix that for you.

"Is it ok for male cops to enter the women's toilet FULL STOP? Wouldn't it at least be better to send in female officers?"

The answer is "no, it's not OK because male police officers are a hazard to women, and yes, they should have sent female officers in, and by 'female' I mean born with vulvas". And that answer holds whether the reason for the call is a percieved male in the loo or any other reason to call the police to a women's loo. The only men who should enter a women's loo whilst it's open for use are paramedics if someone has collapsed.

You keep mentioning that banning trans women will not keep women safe. No one is saying it will keep us 100% safe. We will never be completely safe as men will always attack women.
The point is men are already banned from single sex female toilets but transwomen aren't. Transwomen are men too so they need to be banned the same.
It seems like you are saying there's no point in banning transwomen because 'cis' men attack more.
If you acknowledge that 'cis' men should be banned, why do you think transwomen shouldn't be? Because they are such a tiny minority. Anyone can self id these days so I'm sure we will be seeing more and more men identifying as trans for nefarious reasons.
As said earlier, any man can identify as trans now-its not about appearance or 'men in dresses'. If transwomen are allowed in toilets then potentially any man can access which makes us all unsafer.
If women are assaulted by men that have to sneak in, how many more men will attack if they are freely allowed access, can't be challenged and don't even have to hide and sneak in as you say?
I have also been attacked in women's toilets before and I don't want it to be made easier by allowing all men access. People will just get used to seeing men in women's spaces because who knows if they're trans etc... and no one will raise alarms anymore.

@LucyMonth you didn’t answer my posts.
This is the one where I explain why your preferred design is not safe. I would like your thoughts on it. It is good to get your viewpoint as it is the same as transactivists.

If there’s any evidence you have to say your preferred design is safer, it will be the first time I have seen it so I would love to take a look.

Remember, you will be in a mixed sex area where everyone is expected to be then you want a private cubicle where no one can hear or see you.

This has implications for women’s and men’s health too. If you feel nauseous or ill you are likely to head to the toilet. If you collapse, you are more likely to survive, or avoid suffering long-term damage, if someone notices and rescues you. After 4 minutes without oxygen your body starts to suffer.

The following links should be clickable:

There are known medical reasons for a disproportionally high frequency of cardiac arrests and strokes while an individual is in the toilet room. There are no UK statistics that list where people collapse. However, it is known there are around 100,000 hospital admissions due to heart attacks in this country, equating to one every five minutes. It is estimated there are 400,000 people in the U.K. with undiagnosed heart failure. There are also around 100,000 strokes in this country, equating to one every five minutes. Around 1% of people in this country have epilepsy and around 80 people are diagnosed with epilepsy each day. There are many other conditions that lead to collapse where you need to be noticed and accessed quickly eg. diabetes and asthma.

Like wearing a car seatbelt, toilet door gaps can make the difference in those critical moments.

So Chris has admitted that transwomen are men? Finally!

Also, I imagine that a Black butch lesbian probably gets a lot of shit generally for "not womanning properly".

The answer to racism, misogyny, and lesbophobia isn't to strip away even more of women's protections, but to strengthen women's protections and make sure that everyone is 100% informed that those protections apply to Black butch lesbians.

Black women are women. Butch lesbian women are women. Men are not women.

I’m just someone on Mumsnet. I would encourage the people in our government whose job it is to think of solutions to work on this instead of paying lip service with “keep men out of women’s bathrooms”

I'd like them to come up with solutions to keep all types of men out. Why is it our responsibility to solve it any more than yours? I can't take your posts seriously I'm afraid.

Genuinely interested to know about statistics around the number of women attacked by trans women in toilets?