Germany: Not voting for women's rights...

[Delphin]

(evil thread title, I know :-) )

On Sunday, there are national (Bundestag) elections in Germany. I have been worrying and thinking about who to vote for for weeks.

My priorities were, in that order:

1. Women's rights: I didn't want to vote for a party that put the Self-ID law in its current form into the law book. That took Greens, Socialdemocrats and Liberals out of the race.
2. "Debt Brake" (constitutional brake on investions out of state debt). It needs to go, or at least heavily reformed, to get Germany out of the economic slump. That took the Christian Democrats out.
3. Defence and the Ukraine: More investions into the Army, and a realistic policy about Russia, more help for Ukraine.

I had decided on voting for the Christian Democrats for the first time in my life, despite #2, because of #1 and #3.
Then Munich and Riyadh happened.

I will be voting Greens, as they have the security policy plans that align most with my opinions. They also want to reform the debt brake, which needs to happen for the massive investments needed in defence and in infrastructure and industry policies.

For the first time in my life I have the feeling that this is indeed a single issue election. That we are at a point where we need to chance course internationally (and thus nationally), to preserve our society/societies in Europe. I was around for the 1980s Nachrüstungsdebatte (debate on more medium range missiles to be stationed in Germany), but it never felt this acute, even though I was a teen/twen then. I cannot in good conscience "punish" the Greens or Social Democrats for the SelfID law though withdrawing my vote, while Europe is in turmoil (well, the Social Democrats deserve to be punished for their Ukraine policy so far).

I feel like a traitor, although I know that a "punishment" vote won't make a difference as the law is already in power. It's now grassroots work to inform people about its problems and getting it reformed and partly rescinded (the part that basically defined sex out of German law books, and therefore changed all laws that concern women as a sex class). I am looking for a way to get involved (but as I am away from the big cities, there aren't many options in real life).

How do other German voters feel about this? (I know you're out there :-) ) .

I can't vote anymore (more than 25 years out of the country) and I don't know who I'd vote for if I could.
I have the impression, especially after Magdeburg, Aschaffenburg and Muenchen, for the majority of people it will be foremost about immigration. Women's rights aren't taken into consideration for this election.

Me too.

I was for the first time, while not as far as you, thinking whether I should actually consider CDU. However, they came out 2nd lowest (only behind AfD, for the major parties) for me in terms of political positions as measured by the Wahl-O-Mat (as last time really). And while Merz has come out in support of Trump's "there are only two genders" act, that man does not believe women should have full autonomy over their bodies. So not like he would be a beacon for women's rights anyway.

fwiw I was considering Volt but they are full on the gender ideology train and likely would be a wasted vote, so I went for (postal) Greens as well.

I did not actually know that, and makes it lucky that I registered with my parents in between undergrad and postgrad for a few months, because otherwise I'd be coming up on this for the next elections.

And yes, which to be fair was long overdue. For better or worse, this topic is a key topic to many people and major parties ignored what a good chunk of the population believe and feel on this topic and while I don't think this should make people vote for a party like the AfD, one can't deny that in reality that is exactly what happened.

Current polls show the CDU very slightly climbing, as well as the very left Linke (who are now clear above the 5% line, cutoff for the Bundestag). Linke voters seem to come out of the Undecided group? Greens are losing votes since January.
https://www.zeit.de/politik/deutschland/umfragen-bundestagswahl-neuwahl-wahltrend
You can also see a bump in AfD results in January, which is the effect @Igneococcus and @MrGHardy notes, people voting for the party shouting loudest about changes (actually most of the other parties are working on changes to asylum and immigration regulations as well - I think they see that the current policies/real actions are untenable in the long term, socially and economically)

I sympathise. We face many threats. You can only do what you can. It looks like court action is the only thing that works - eg bringing an argument that the law is unconstitutional (in violation of the Grundgesetz) on the grounds that the whole notion of privileging a subjective gender to permit a “trans” status which erodes sex based rights is in itself discrimination on the grounds of sex.. which I would argue is the case given that the detriment eg increased risk of assault and potentially pregnancy only ever goes one way - against us women.

That’s a fundamental objection to the whole concept and I think it’s one we should be making more of. Hopefully current developments start to wake people up to this. To me it’s so obvious!

@ShockedandStunnedRepeatedly :"Hopefully current developments start to wake people up to this. "

I hate that we will have to wait until something negative happens, to take action. It's not like it is about the Solidaritätszuschlag (taxes to be invested in eastern Germany) or the access for women to army careers. In this, in some cases people will get hurt :-(.

I agree with you here, for the majority it has become about immigration. I would love to see a breakdown of how much time was spent talking about immigration in all the TV debates they had 🙄 and how little on the many other important issues.

Anyway, I will be voting for the SPD. No chance that the CDU would get my vote now (although if I had been allowed to vote when Merkel was head of the party it might have been different!)
Die Linke was actually my top match when I did the Wahl-o-mat but I'm going with a strategic vote this time.

@Delphin I completely agree. Sadly, it seems to be all that people understand…

Voting decisions are very personal. I wouldn’t trust the Wahl-o-mat as I don’t know what sort of built-in biases it has but actually read the party programmes.

For me, voting SPD or Green is out of the question as they have harmed women. The SPD is the party that legalised prostitution 20 years ago. The Greens have form for being infiltrated by people with paraphilic sexual interests, back in the 80s it was men with a sexual interest in children, today it’s men like Markus Ganserer. It’s the ultimate, selfish, prissy, bourgeois boomer party and I’d like to see it consigned to the dustbin of history but that’s just my opinion. Their energy policies have deindustrialised and weakened the country, too.

Also, neither party is done with embedding gender ideology to the detriment of women, they both support changing the constitution to include ‘gender identity’. Which is nuts and dangerous.

Having read the party programme, the CDU is the only option. I am not voting for a smaller party as the one thing the country needs is less fragmentation. As for the AfD, they have neo-Nazi elements and their capacity to govern is a big question mark but one of them denounced self-ID in the Bundestag in a clear, coherent fashion and I for one was grateful for that. The country has so many problems, it beggars belief that the coalition prioritised this crazy law. I’m glad I don’t live in this woman-hating hellhole right now but would like to come back at some point.

@givememarmite : "Anyway, I will be voting for the SPD."

They used to be my go-to vote (I even was a member in the 1980s-90s). But concerning Ukraine and Russia their stance is not something I can agree with (and have been critical of for a while). So Greens it is, while holding my nose.

I’m glad I don’t live in this woman-hating hellhole right now but would like to come back at some point.

It certainly doesn't feel like a woman-hating hellhole living here right now, but it definitely feels like an Ausländer-hating place so that is definitely influencing my decision/my priority just now.

(I didn't realise this thread was started on the feminism board when I first replied, but understand now why the self ID issue is so important to most people replying here )

@Angryexpat your point about the bias of the wahlomat is very true, it was a lazy to get some help making a decision. It's only my second time voting in Germany, in the last general election it was a much easier decision for me.

@givememarmite : "It certainly doesn't feel like a woman-hating hellhole living here right now,"

True. Many laws, regulations and actions that have found their way into contact with the broad public in UK and the USA, have not reached light of day in Germany (I have a 16yo in school, and while there are a group of non-binary kids, there is nothing in the curriculum yet based in gender ideology or queer ideology. There is no gender-id questionnaires in hospitals or surgeries.).
A few cases have been publicised (a women's gym in Nürnberg, the case of a Neonazi changing his gender, apparently to escape to women's prison and to make a mockery of the new law).

We'll have to watch out, and publicise from the beginning.

I am not in a career that is in danger of being captured, I think (machine building, pretty conservative), and last year's diversity action day was about age. Still, my kid is 16, and I want her to be as free as I was (well, as far as Tiktok allows :-P ).

It doesn't have biases by virtue of what it is. It gives you a score on how your answers align with the answers of political parties. It also provides further information on why parties stand for yes/no/neutral which is obviously much more interesting than just the pure outcome. The only bias one might argue exists is the set of questions to begin with. I am not saying it's perfect, but bias, is really not a criticism of it that has merit. Oversimplified, intransparent sure (though the latter if you read the explanations I think that one is also not the case) but not biased.

And sure, fwiw I read (or rather the parts on the issues I care about the most) the programs of SPD, Greens, Linke, and Volt, as well as PdF because they scored highest for me, but are just way too small to take seriously. But this time I didn't bother reading the one for the CDU because why? I had intended to read them and considered them seriously for the first time, but turns out I have almost 30% less alignment with them than the SPD/Green. At that point it's perfectly fine to not waste time on them in my opinion.

I don’t know … I’ve lived in the UK for some time and when I go back to Germany, things do seem off.

The brothels and normalisation of prostitution, obvious woman-hating rubbish like the movie ‘Fuck you Goethe’ or whatever it was called. The sexualisation of young girls and widespread idea that women exist to service men sexually and that their boundaries are optional. The fact that there isn’t much of a shared women’s culture. The lack of public debate on self-ID. The fact that even fairly conservative people can’t bring themselves to calling Ganserer out. He brings his fetish to work, textbook case.

I was pretty shocked by the Cologne incident, too. It’s not ‘hatred against foreigners’ to criticise coordinated mass sexual assault that clearly has roots in a foreign culture, I believe it’s called taharrush gamea in Arabic. There is no honest accounting for the trade-offs that ensue when culture changes. Fine, you can still argue that large-scale migration is a good thing but IMO there is a lack of honesty about who pays the price. Germany seems to be a country where women’s rights are in a classic pincer situation, under pressure from the identitarian left and also the right (and I‘m including patriarchal foreign cultures here, too - if they are not right-wing, what are they?).

I'm still very undecided, for the first time ever. I only know who I won't vote for and that's AfD.
It's of no help that I am still fairly new to the area so don't really know the candidates/MdBs.
If the Greens had more people like Cem Özdemir, I'd happily vote for them. But unfortunately, they are far too happy to provide a platform for people like Ganserer.

A vote for the SPD would be a vote for Scholz and I find him to be the wrong person for the job of chancellor.

Merz, I find appalling and I don't trust him not to collude with AfD.

The Liberals won't stand a chance, I think. And I'm far too central to vote for Die Linke.
BSW is out, for me, too. While they have a point on certain topics, they are far too populistic.

I've been voting in every single General Election in Germany since 1998 but I have never felt as undecided as I do now.
Speaking to a colleague on lunch break last week she pretty much said the same thing and added "They are all unelectable".
But I also don't want to waste my vote because in this election, it is more important than ever before. Otherwise I'd possibly vote for Piratenpartei or some other minority party.

You care about women's rights and considered voting for Merz? The man who voted against criminalising rape within marriage in 1997 (!). The man who just said this was a "decision about details". I think the 10+ rape survivors I know would disagree.

I get your predicament though, I feel similarly. Have you considered eg. voting SPD (if you have mostly voted Green) and telling your Green MP why you did not vote for him like you would have done otherwise?

Merz most likely will still become chancellor, but at least he will be kept in check. I know lots of people who won't vote SPD because of Scholz, but it is very unlikely he will stay in office.

The Greens and SPD (social democrats) have lost my trust with the Self-ID law, and looking back, had I known about the Green's weird stuff from the 1970s/80s, I would have stopped voting for them earlier.

Die Linke / The Left is for disarmament, which is an impossible stance in the current situation. I don't like war but I prefer to be realistic - and prepared.

Volt seems all hippie-happy, but in reading their programs, also during the past elections, I think they are just a younger version of the free market liberals, they want a federate EU and EU government; I think it is way too early for that. They also don't really copyright, which would destroy artists and science. Volt remind me a bit of Elon Musk and friends, before he went off the rails.

Definitely agree with others that it helps to read the programs instead of only wahl-o-mat use.

FDP were incredibly annoying during the coalition's duration, actively creating problems with the government they were part of. Their intentional break up of it and the schoolyard bully ways in which they and the CDU/conservatives pushed for this election to be as quick as possible was actively damaging Germany's reputation and acceptance abroad.

Now we have the problem that there wasn't much time to prepare these elections - absolutely minimum time - and Germans abroad are increasingly worried that their votes won't be mailed in back in time. This could have been prevented by CDU not asking thrice a day before Christmas: "When is the chancellor finally stepping down" as if a few weeks more would have made much difference to politics. But they would have made a difference for preparation and debate beforehand.

For the readers from UK or elsewhere who are not familiar with it, if a coalition breaks up and the chancellor steps down, everyone stays in place as caretaker government until elections can be held and new agreements are in place; it's not like we don't have a functional government in between, and a few weeks are neither here nor there.
So all that crowing by CDU and FDP was incredibly annoying. As if elections five days after Christmas are a good idea....

I think that now far-right possible voters see the effects in the US, and Trump is suddenly best friends with Putin, they might want to reconsider their protest vote, too; otherwise they can start learning Russian.

This is an election where it is indeed very hard to decide, but I think, too, CDU / Merz might make a pact with the AfD, while the others wouldn't, so it cannot be the CDU.

I also hope that the current events in the UK regarding women's rights could invigorate the debate about Self-ID, and that there will be some movement regardless of which democratic party will govern after the elections.

@onlytherain : "You care about women's rights and considered voting for Merz?"

Yes. We don't have a presidential system, so the chancellor isn't the one and only one calling the shots (no Executive Orders for a start). Also in a coalition, he is not free to do anything he wants, as the coalition partner will have made requests for political decisions during agreement on the coalition.
I have always voted for a party with whose ideas I could broadly agree, rather than for a single candidate (I mostly gave both votes to the same party). And as I said, my primary decision point this time is defence, security policy/geopolitics and Ukraine

"Have you considered eg. voting SPD?"
Not really, their stance on Ukraine and Russia is so 1980s, that I cannot in good conscience vote for them (good podcast on the issue: Ostausschuss der Salonkolumnisten, Folge
42: Der Russlandkomplex der SPD – mit Fritz Felgentreu).

If I cannot do it (voting green) there is still the SSW (regional party of some of the national minorities in Schleswig-Holstein , i.e. Danes and Frisians, with mid-left Scandinavian political ideas). If they can gather enough votes they might even get a second MP in parliament. They are not subject to the 5% limitation, so the don't need as many votes for one MP.

Here's a good overview on Merz's connection to Blackrock:
https://unherd.com/2025/02/will-merz-sell-germany-to-blackrock/

@ForestAtTheSea : "but I think, too, CDU / Merz might make a pact with the AfD"

Just today at the final rally in Munich, Merz categorically excluded talks or a coalition with the AfD (video source: Tagesschau).

@Delphin
I hope so, but if, then that's probably mostly a reaction to the loud protests after CDU proceeded a topic with AfD's help in parliament.

We'll have to see what will happen in the next days, but I hope at least that tomorrow people will focus on the democratic parties when making their choice.

I'm more angry about the fact that as was discussed here in various threads, all parties have a lot of negative sides to them and that we're basically choosing the one that is the least worst.

the SSW you suggested seems a good idea; I'm not sure whether it's on the lists outside of Schleswig-Holstein.

@ForestAtTheSea : "we're basically choosing the one that is the least worst."

So true!!

"the SSW you suggested seems a good idea; I'm not sure whether it's on the lists outside of Schleswig-Holstein."

No, they are only on the list in Schleswig-Holstein (they used to only have candidates in South Schleswig, i.e. the historical settlement area of the Danish and Frisian minority).

@Delphin So today he excluded a collaboration with the AFD. Just like he did in November and then went ahead and did it anyway. I don't trust that man as far as I can throw him.

Of course, German chancellors are different from eg. US presidents. They still hold a lot of power. Plus, it says something about a party if they elect someone like this as their leader.

I don’t think it’s fair to say Merz ‘collaborated’ with the AfD. He tabled a motion on an issue of public concern and the AfD voted with the CDU/CSU.

But let’s see how the chips fall. FWIW I don’t think the AfD will go away until they have actually failed as a governing party in a Land.

Regarding the Russia-Ukraine war, I listened to the podcast recommended earlier with great interest (the ‘emergency’ episode). But it does strike me that the outcome of the war will ultimately be determined by American actions, not the German election. I also can’t see the Greens agreeing to any action that would increase nuclear weapons in Europe but maybe I’m mistaken?