Germany: Not voting for women's rights...

[Delphin]

(evil thread title, I know :-) )

On Sunday, there are national (Bundestag) elections in Germany. I have been worrying and thinking about who to vote for for weeks.

My priorities were, in that order:

1. Women's rights: I didn't want to vote for a party that put the Self-ID law in its current form into the law book. That took Greens, Socialdemocrats and Liberals out of the race.
2. "Debt Brake" (constitutional brake on investions out of state debt). It needs to go, or at least heavily reformed, to get Germany out of the economic slump. That took the Christian Democrats out.
3. Defence and the Ukraine: More investions into the Army, and a realistic policy about Russia, more help for Ukraine.

I had decided on voting for the Christian Democrats for the first time in my life, despite #2, because of #1 and #3.
Then Munich and Riyadh happened.

I will be voting Greens, as they have the security policy plans that align most with my opinions. They also want to reform the debt brake, which needs to happen for the massive investments needed in defence and in infrastructure and industry policies.

For the first time in my life I have the feeling that this is indeed a single issue election. That we are at a point where we need to chance course internationally (and thus nationally), to preserve our society/societies in Europe. I was around for the 1980s Nachrüstungsdebatte (debate on more medium range missiles to be stationed in Germany), but it never felt this acute, even though I was a teen/twen then. I cannot in good conscience "punish" the Greens or Social Democrats for the SelfID law though withdrawing my vote, while Europe is in turmoil (well, the Social Democrats deserve to be punished for their Ukraine policy so far).

I feel like a traitor, although I know that a "punishment" vote won't make a difference as the law is already in power. It's now grassroots work to inform people about its problems and getting it reformed and partly rescinded (the part that basically defined sex out of German law books, and therefore changed all laws that concern women as a sex class). I am looking for a way to get involved (but as I am away from the big cities, there aren't many options in real life).

How do other German voters feel about this? (I know you're out there :-) ) .

has anyone else seen calls to send cups to Merz? I can't get over him being such a whiny baby when Merkel won the leadership of the party and he gave up politics....
Happy the FDP are still getting smacked in the face in the polls. I would have liked BSW to get a better result tbh.

@ForestAtTheSea we had a few lines, mostly on needing independence, the interference and the US don't care about Europe

We also have coverage of Macron being friendly with Trump today, and a lot on Starmer doing the same later

Hard to gauge how much US will continue to be relied upon by UK

What is Merz's position on the recent Gender Self Id Law? Are the CDU pushing back against this?

@Shortshriftandlethal
They voted against this in parliament, all of the CDU, and there are murmurs that they might want to try to repeal it. How likely that is depends on the upcoming coalition.

Listening to the White House press conference with Trump and Macron

@Shortshriftandlethal it was actually written into the CDU manifesto that they wish to repeal the self ID law. But whether that’s one of the negotiating points for making a coalition with SPD who supported the law remains to be seen. Either way, it doesn’t seem to be a big talking point in Germany, as it has been in the UK. I think Germans are still stuck at the ‘be kind’ stage and don’t recognise the implications for half the population. Either that or they just don’t care.

@franke : "I think Germans are still stuck at the ‘be kind’ stage and don’t recognise the implications for half the population."

I think that too. I spoke with my parents for the first time about the issue, both 80+, politically interested (used to be locally active as well). They basically had no idea about the issue, as it doesn't play a role in the german media (they are competent in English but don't read UK press regularly). They had no knowledge about the issues with the SBGG for women, and said "but if someone wants to transition, let him/her" (didn't see/know about the problem with teenagers). I didn't want to empty a truckload of terfery over them, so I let it be after a while.

Yes, that’s how I feel Delphin. When I've talked about this with friends they just look at me like I've gone mad, particularly when I get onto male rapists in female jails. The problem in Germany is that so much goes unreported, that I think people think nothing bad happens, that people are generally decent and there's nothing to worry about. Blissful ignorance I suppose.

@Delphin

In my family, we often exchange books or magazines that we've read and pass them on to the next person. I've started to include copies of the Emma magazine. They help to explain the point without having to have awkward conversations with elder relatives in person. It's also less confrontational as it doesn't put people on the spot and they can read and think about the points in their own time. They don't have to talk about it with the giver, either.

Erm, maybe look at how they are holding their arms out??

You seriously think that’s a Nazi salute? I’ve said earlier that I wouldn’t vote for them based on their programme.

But I do think at some point my fellow countrymen and women will have to come to terms with the fact that it’s 2025, and almost every single European country has a party on the far right. We’re not special.

In terms of self-ID, if that’s all you care about, then the only coalition to guarantee repeal is black-light blue.

He also gave him a few strong hand gestures when Trump out and out lied . He called him out verbally as well . It wasn’t as friendly as you might think .

@Danja2010 the post was pre conference but after watching I'd say incredibly so on friendly. Lots of reminders of being allies, talk of being friends, basically charm and attempt at getting the one thing France / Europe need..

This isn't a go at Maxron he did a very good job. The Oval Office correction was done well too:

I'm not sure he has what we need in the bag - the security guarantee for troops. Trump was flippant on the troops question and has not stated it will be in place.

Macron did well no doubt, but he's asking for something big

As for Merz how do pp in Germany view Macron and Starmer going and trying to set up this deal?

That wasn't on him though. Merkel boxed away anyone who could challenge her and surrounded herself with yes men/women. It was absolutely the right decision to leave.

Yep, I think it’s a Nazi salute, wrapped in just enough plausible deniability to stay the right side of the law. It’s deliberately provocative - and has the nice side effect of being a dog whistle to actual neo-nazis (which the AFD aren’t).

But I do think at some point my fellow countrymen and women will have to come to terms with the fact that it’s 2025, and almost every single European country has a party on the far right. We’re not special.

That's not the point people (like us) are making though. The far right have always been there. The point is how mainstream it is. I have said this since the Mauerfall but the DDR was obliterated without even considering that there may have been parts that we could have kept.

Look at the way the Ampelmännchen thing was handled for example. There was a huge (avoiable) conflict because of West German intransigence over "DIN Norm". Lots of my friends in the east see that as sn exemplar of how every aspect of their former lifestyle was rubbed out.

So now the politicians need to listen to what people want. Not just catty on carrying on.
And that huge pale blue Fleck needs to be won back to at least the CDU

I'm not sure if thhis has already been posted? A recent Redduxx article about men being housed in women's jails in Germany:

reduxx.info/germany-two-trans-identified-male-inmates-housed-in-womens-prisons-were-transferred-out-after-threatening-female-inmates-inquiry-reveals/

Self Id doesn't have to be the "only thing you care about" for you to care about it a lot.

i care very much about SelfID. But i care about a whole lot of other things too. Which is why i cast my votes as i did. And i follow accounts such as Heldinnen and Emma to see what's going on, and i have brought up the issues that i have been made aware of with some of my friends/family.

I live in an arch conservative village where i, at 60, bring the average age down significantly. SelfID isn't an issue here, but transport infrastructure, access to GPs and anything to do with farming (dairy farming in particular) is what people are concerned about. Basically my vote counts for nothing except statistics.

@Brefugee
Based on what you are saying, I’m wondering then if these dog whistles are partly a way for East Germans to troll West Germans because being associated with a return to Nazism pains West Germans intensely? (I grew up in the West.) It’s a political taboo that East Germans do not share to the same extent.

Maybe they’ve got it right. Having lived outside Germany now for many years, I’m not sure being stuck in a mental world in which it is forever 1933 is going to help solve the problems of the 21st century. This doesn’t mean that it’s not important to oppose authoritarianism and political violence, I absolutely do. But the ‘anti-fascist’ Greens or Linke have arguably woke-washed their authoritarianism and gotten away with it while everybody is focused on the AfD.

So rather than trying to politically educate East Germans like some here like to do (colour of political map has to turn to “at least the CDU” - is that for us to say?), maybe we should be a bit more thoughtful.

I really care about self-ID. To me, it’s one of the defining political issues of our time, worldwide. I see it as a form of colonialism and domination turned inwards, projected onto humans as living beings, and harming women most as they are the ones who make new humans. I still didn’t vote AfD …

dog whistles? eh?

My point is it is NO WONDER there are differences in voting patterns between East and West because, aside of the Solidaritätzuschlag what have we done to help Eastern Germans? Why don't they feel the same way as people in such disparate places as Bayern and Schleswig-Holstein? Why do we see the map show such a stark contrast based exactly on the division of the Inner German Border?

My feeling is that since the first euphoria of the fall of the wall, life for West Germans has continued in exactly the same way it did since the partition of the country. And life for East Germans has been completely upended twice in living memory.

What do the SPD offer to the East? What do the AfD offer to the East? Why are there stubborn pockets of green in places like Freiburg? Not sure about anyone else but i'm far far far from trying to "politically educate" East Germans. In my circle of friends i have bunches of people who left the East as soon as they could (mostly once they left school or apprenticeship) for various reasons, or who have stayed there. None of my friends in places like Leipzig, Dresden, Magdeburg or Jena vote for the AfD, sure - we are all pretty much politically alligned, that is why we are friends i think. What comes through from all of them, loud and clear is that politicians in the west don't understand the east, and make very little effort to understand their needs.

ETA: my feelings on the Greens are just about unprintable. But it boils down to they are spreading themselves too thin on subjects that are not necessarily green. Some of my friends (in UK and here) have left the greens because of their incessant need to be authoritarian on subjects that have nothing to do with being green but have everything to do with finding new exciting shiny things to play with. That seems a fair summary to me. Die Linke? Well, given what they are, is "authoritarian" surprising? not to me.

@ForestAtTheSea : "I've started to include copies of the Emma magazine. "

I had a test subscription last year, but decided to not stay with it. I don't agree with their stance on Ukraine, and their articles on the issue grate on me.
I might subscribe again and use the magazines in the way you do, as they are kind of a one-stop-shop on the issue in Germany. Neither my parents nor my kid will comb through various web sites/blogs for info (well, not yet).

Sorry, Brefugee, with “dog whistles”, I was referring to something that was said earlier, about an AfD election poster that could be seen to contain a Nazi salute, with just about the right amount of plausible deniability. And that sort of thing services the ‘us versus them’ mentality that you also describe. But I don’t actually see it as a serious proposition to introduce Nazi-style policies. It’s about symbolic politics, and benefitting from the East-West divide. Sorry if this isn’t very clear.

Haha, my feelings about the Greens are also unprintable. How did they actually do in the East?

@Delphin What is Emma’s stance on Ukraine, out of interest?

thanks, @Angryexpat i just wanted to be sure i wasn't the dog-whistler!

As far as nazi salutes go, meh. I am very very very reluctant to call it that - Musk's i would say was, Bannon's possibly, the AfD poster? meh - because i am a season ticket holder for footy, and i am often in the presence of a few thousand men raising a fist and shouting "sieg!" after a match. It makes me really really uncomfortable, but it is entirely innocent of nazi overtones.

What i am seeing, not just here but also in the UK and especially in the US at the last election - is some parties (mostly the left-of-centre, strangely) seemingly ploughing their own furrow, expecting their supporters to simply go along with it, and paying no real mind to the actual wishes/needs/wants of their (potential) constituents. The Democratic campaign against Trump was a brilliant example of what happens when you (and i don't want to use the term with woke/broke in it, but it did very much look that way) ignore what people on the ground are saying.

I am beyond furious that the 2 elections i have been able to vote in over the past 12 months have had me holding my nose to vote for a party that goes completely against something i have been fighting for since i was a young girl (women's rights). But on balance i couldn't vote Tory/CDU.

@Angryexpat the entire West German mindset of anti-nazism, anti-militarism, anti-authoritarianism (what many would now describe as "wokeism") which persists to this day wasn't by accident, it was deliberately engineered by the Allied occupying powers - it's the greatest feat of social engineering ever: taking a nation that had been culturally dominated by militarism since 1815 and turning it into one of pacifist worker bees in a few years.

The irony of course is the US now criticising Germany for banning symbols and extremist speech, and erecting firewalls against the rise of the right when those bans and the mindset that goes with them were engineered largely by the US.

Of course the Ossis didn't get any of this so it's not surprising that they have a very different political and cultural mindset.