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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

JKR poem to IW - Brilliant

306 replies

TwistedWonder · 15/02/2025 18:21

https://x.com/jk_rowling/status/1890450465063600510

I’ll get screenshots for anyone not on X but I have to love JKR for this ❤️

OP posts:
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7
HaddyAbrams · 16/02/2025 18:09

BackToLurk · 16/02/2025 17:58

I have 2 boy children. They are also completely different.

Mine are very alike in a lot of ways. Very different in others. A lot of their traits are "stereotypically female" but it's extremely likely this is because they were raised largly by just me.

Of course a lot of personality is innate. But my nephew not playing with dolls/ the toy kitchen and my nieces hating cars is because they've been told "those aren't for you"

spannasaurus · 16/02/2025 18:10

@ThisFluentBiscuit

I don't understand why you think what my physics teacher said was terrible when you seem to agree with him

DeanElderberry · 16/02/2025 18:12

The Polytechnic Massacre is an extreme example, but lots of women potential engineers have been discouraged over the years

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C3%89cole_Polytechnique_massacre

and look at Soviet Russia

https://www.smithsonianmag.com/smart-news/soviet-russia-had-a-better-record-of-training-women-in-stem-than-america-does-today-180948141/

spannasaurus · 16/02/2025 18:16

spannasaurus · 16/02/2025 18:10

@ThisFluentBiscuit

I don't understand why you think what my physics teacher said was terrible when you seem to agree with him

I am an engineering graduate so maybe I'm just too robotic and emotionally clueless to understand the difference between your views and my physics teacher's views

myplace · 16/02/2025 18:18

Perhaps someone can back up my belief that in other countries, the gender divide is less obvious?

Is it in India and China where women are unusually well represented in maths and engineering?

DeanElderberry · 16/02/2025 18:20

Oh, time to roll out this years Young Scientist competition winners

btyoungscientist.com/sisters-ciara-saoirse-laoise-murphy-announced-as-winners-of-the-61st-bt-young-scientist-technology-exhibition/

GailBlancheViola · 16/02/2025 19:55

You seem to be contradicting yourself, you confidently say this:

If there's no such thing as male and female brains, why are the vast majority of engineers men? Why aren't there more female mathematicians? Of course, individual women can make top engineers and mathematicians, but there are far fewer of them at the population level than there are male ones.

Men and women behave so differently and have such different preferences that I can never understand why people try to deny there are sex differences in the brain. At least in general, even if it doesn't apply to every individual. Many parents who have raised both a boy and a girl end up convinced of such.

And when people come back and point out to you the reasons why there weren't/aren't more women engineers and mathematicians and posters come back and show you why and why those there were/are are not more known about you come back with this:

I do think that sexism has something to do with it. And what your physics teacher said is terrible. Like I said before, as individuals women can absolutely have fine STEM brains. Bletchley Park and the stories in Hidden Figures are examples.
But if females as a population were just as inclined towards STEM as males, I don't think there would be such a huge disparity in the numbers. I do think that sexism has something to do with it, but I don't think it explains the massive differences. IMHO, it's odd to see such a disparity without some biological underpinning to it.

Patriarchy, misogyny, sexism and indeed social class has everything to do with it.

But perhaps I am wrong. Those are just my thoughts, and I'm not a scientist or a researcher in the field.

Yes you are wrong.

I'm good at arts and humanities and not good at maths and science. I don't think that that makes my brain lesser at all. I have much better spelling ability and writing ability than most people I've met who are good at STEM. And I find it easier to empathise, as well. Many people I know who are engineers seem to be somewhat robotic and clueless when it comes to emotions. STEM brains are not better than non-STEM brains. They have different areas of strengths and weaknesses.

My mother-in-law had a phenomenal mathematical brain. What could she have done with that if she hadn't been forced to leave school at 14 and go into the prescribed female sphere of work relevant to her social class? My father-in-law had a phenomenal arts/classics brain, academically very gifted but he too had to leave school at 14 and go to work in a manual field as that was what men of his social class did. Both of them showed their true potential during the war but were of course side-lined afterwards. Neither were unempathetic, far from it and both would knock most people into a cocked hat with their spelling and writing ability.

That is 100% factual, not a mere generalisation.

Sexism is the reason that, say, a STEM degree is valued higher than a humanities degree by many.

And why do you think that is?

Mollyollydolly · 16/02/2025 20:07

I love JK but I wish she'd ignore the little shit (easy for me to say).
The only thing they're famous for is arguing with Rowling. He bloody loves it. Let him descend into total obscurity.

LadyBracknellsHandbagg · 16/02/2025 20:27

@GailBlancheViola I had absolutely no idea that it’s simply down to women being ‘inclined towards STEM’ in order to solve the problem, here’s me thinking it was down to misogyny and poverty and racism when we should just jolly well sort out our inclination!
I wonder if we could apply the same ‘logic’ towards the epidemic of male violence towards women and girls, surely if women just weren’t inclined to be raped and murdered, the problem would just magically disappear 🤦‍♀️

GailBlancheViola · 16/02/2025 20:40

Well quite LadyBracknellsHandbagg.

Those damn lady brains and their inclinations or lack of.

SabrinaThwaite · 16/02/2025 20:42

ThisFluentBiscuit · 16/02/2025 17:51

I'm good at arts and humanities and not good at maths and science. I don't think that that makes my brain lesser at all. I have much better spelling ability and writing ability than most people I've met who are good at STEM. And I find it easier to empathise, as well. Many people I know who are engineers seem to be somewhat robotic and clueless when it comes to emotions. STEM brains are not better than non-STEM brains. They have different areas of strengths and weaknesses. Sexism is the reason that, say, a STEM degree is valued higher than a humanities degree by many.

Sorry, but what a load of cobblers.

Being logical and methodical is not mutually exclusive with being empathic and having emotional intelligence.

ThisFluentBiscuit · 16/02/2025 21:42

spannasaurus · 16/02/2025 18:10

@ThisFluentBiscuit

I don't understand why you think what my physics teacher said was terrible when you seem to agree with him

I've been very clear that on the individual level women can make top scientists etc. I said that the uneven numbers can be seen at the population level, and that I'm unsure it's all down to socialisation.

ThisFluentBiscuit · 16/02/2025 21:45

SabrinaThwaite · 16/02/2025 20:42

Sorry, but what a load of cobblers.

Being logical and methodical is not mutually exclusive with being empathic and having emotional intelligence.

Not mutually exclusive and not cause and effect, but tendencies.

ThisFluentBiscuit · 16/02/2025 21:47

@GailBlancheViola

"Sexism is the reason that, say, a STEM degree is valued higher than a humanities degree by many.
And why do you think that is?"

I said why in the first sentence - sexism.

ThisFluentBiscuit · 16/02/2025 21:50

MarieDeGournay · 16/02/2025 18:04

ThisFluentBiscuit Many people I know who are engineers seem to be somewhat robotic and clueless when it comes to emotions.

Do you mean male engineers you know are 'somewhat robotic and clueless when it comes to emotions.'?

Because I'm a female [ex] techie and I speak a few languages, love poetry, am a dab hand at embroidery, and I am an absolute sweetie when it comes to emotionsHalo

Anecdotal, but my anecdotes are as good as your anecdotesWink

Only anecdotes, but I know two high-flying STEM women, fwiw. One is an oncologist specialising in proton radiation, and she's perfectly empathetic. The other is a high-level computer scientist and she's a walking stereotype - not empathetic and totally oblivious to social cues.

ThisFluentBiscuit · 16/02/2025 21:54

Helleofabore · 16/02/2025 18:06

They are being 'encouraged'. There are programmes especially to do this.

However, the messages of support are being very much mixed up with the peer pressure about 'sex based roles and gender identity'. I have directly seen great programmes to encourage girls into STEM be largely ignored in secondary school and I wondered why. Robotic programmes, maths programmes, even IT classes. When you start to ask why, and the replies start to align with 'these are boys subjects' it is startling.

And I have watched horrified at a primary school where the girls are not allowed to do the free football training because it is offered to the 'boys' only.

Jesus, that's terrible about them being told they are boys' subjects only, even today.

spannasaurus · 16/02/2025 21:56

ThisFluentBiscuit · 16/02/2025 21:42

I've been very clear that on the individual level women can make top scientists etc. I said that the uneven numbers can be seen at the population level, and that I'm unsure it's all down to socialisation.

But you are saying that lady brains are less capable of understanding STEM subjects so you do agree with my physics teacher.

To be clear, he was talking about all women when he made that comment

GailBlancheViola · 16/02/2025 21:56

@ThisFluentBiscuit Which is a contradiction of your first claim that it is because female brains just aren't up to the task and that those 'lady' brains can be found inside the heads of males which makes the males females really.

Seriously, do you know how hard women have fought throughout the centuries to dispel the patriarchal myth that women just can't do things due to their inferior brains - like rule, have an education, vote, have a bank account, own property, etc., and here you are repeating that trope to try and justify males wanting to be women and have access to everything and take everything women have fought so damn hard for.

SabrinaThwaite · 16/02/2025 21:58

ThisFluentBiscuit · 16/02/2025 21:45

Not mutually exclusive and not cause and effect, but tendencies.

When you say ‘tendencies’, do you really mean ‘personalities’?

Because I have two male children, both into science / maths / engineering and yet at different ends of the emotional intelligence spectrum. Same nature, same nurture, just different personalities.

ThisFluentBiscuit · 16/02/2025 22:00

LadyBracknellsHandbagg · 16/02/2025 16:31

‘If there's no such thing as male and female brains, why are the vast majority of engineers men? Why aren't there more female mathematicians? Of course, individual women can make top engineers and mathematicians, but there are far fewer of them at the population level than there are male ones.’

How about misogyny, how about thousands of years of conditioning by men, who have always, and still do largely, control the narrative? You simply can’t be unaware of this so I hesitate to take your seriously. Men are superior in only one area and that is physical strength, given the differences in skeletal muscularity to women. Men who think they’re women don’t have ‘lady brains’, that is a fallacy put about by them to convince people like you that they are in the wrong body. They’re not.

Well, like I said, maybe I am wrong. I would have to do a lot more reading.

Why are females are still so vastly under-represented in the STEM subjects and careers today? Why don't more girls just study those subjects anyway, if that's what they want to do? Nobody is actually stopping them.

ThisFluentBiscuit · 16/02/2025 22:01

SabrinaThwaite · 16/02/2025 21:58

When you say ‘tendencies’, do you really mean ‘personalities’?

Because I have two male children, both into science / maths / engineering and yet at different ends of the emotional intelligence spectrum. Same nature, same nurture, just different personalities.

Yes, could totally be down to personalities and not sex-based differences in brains. I certainly don't have all the answers!

ThisFluentBiscuit · 16/02/2025 22:03

spannasaurus · 16/02/2025 21:56

But you are saying that lady brains are less capable of understanding STEM subjects so you do agree with my physics teacher.

To be clear, he was talking about all women when he made that comment

Well, I'm not talking about all women. The things you can see on a population level can disappear entirely at the individual level.

Helleofabore · 16/02/2025 22:03

ThisFluentBiscuit · 16/02/2025 21:54

Jesus, that's terrible about them being told they are boys' subjects only, even today.

Yes. There is a good reason people
are worried about girls/ young women today. The repercussions from the teachings about ‘what is a girl and what is a boy’ and you might be a girl / boy if is being hugely pushed back on.

And ‘wrong body’. We have had plenty of parents over the past few years come to this board and tell us their young primary schoolers are distressed because they heard they could be born in the wrong body and could be the opposite sex because they like certain things.

But these stereotypes never really left unfortunately. Instead they became set in some children’s content, and in some instances a diagnosis tool for some activists. To be fair, any instance of an activist coming into schools to ‘teach’ their content rather than an experienced teacher for the age group is problematic. But it has and is happening.

spannasaurus · 16/02/2025 22:05

ThisFluentBiscuit · 16/02/2025 22:00

Well, like I said, maybe I am wrong. I would have to do a lot more reading.

Why are females are still so vastly under-represented in the STEM subjects and careers today? Why don't more girls just study those subjects anyway, if that's what they want to do? Nobody is actually stopping them.

Girls are both directly and indirectly discouraged from studying STEM subjects.

People like you who think that women don't have a natural tendency for STEM subjects are one of the reasons why girls are put off STEM subjects

GailBlancheViola · 16/02/2025 22:10

This FluentBiscuit - you post this:

Jesus, that's terrible about them being told they are boys' subjects only, even today.

And then you post this:

Why are females are still so vastly under-represented in the STEM subjects and careers today? Why don't more girls just study those subjects anyway, if that's what they want to do? Nobody is actually stopping them.

And you can't understand why (1) has an impact on (2)?