JKR poem to IW - Brilliant

[TwistedWonder]

https://x.com/jk_rowling/status/1890450465063600510

I’ll get screenshots for anyone not on X but I have to love JKR for this ❤️

Well, like I said, perhaps I'm wrong. I'll be honest with you - I'm post-50 and I'm REALLY struggling with the idea that there's no such thing as brains that are more female and brains that are more male, and that each type usually corresponds to the rest of the body's sex. During my formative years that was pretty much a given, and it seemed to be backed up in every aspect of life, and still now from what I observe. How many women fix the family cars? How many husbands and wives are so frustrated with each other's ways, because they're so different? How many men would prefer the nurturing role of giving up their careers and staying home with the kids?

Perhaps the above is ALL due to patriarchy, sexism, misogyny etc. and none of it is down to any innate male/female tendencies at all. It's just such a massive leap from what I've taken for granted all my life.

(And yes, if one subscribes to the idea of overall male/female brains, it's a short step from there to believing that you could end up with a brain/body mismatch.)

It's funny, when I read you all on here, I'm open to what you say about this brain stuff, but when I walk away from my laptop, my long-held beliefs snap back like an elastic that wants to return to its normal position.

OH MY GOD - perhaps it IS all social conditioning!! It's so strong! 😱

Exactly this.

@ThisFluentBiscuit you are part of the problem.

Here are two of your comments.

I've been very clear that on the individual level women can make top scientists etc. I said that the uneven numbers can be seen at the population level, and that I'm unsure it's all down to socialisation.

Why are females are still so vastly under-represented in the STEM subjects and careers today? Why don't more girls just study those subjects anyway, if that's what they want to do? Nobody is actually stopping them.

I know you've said that you don't really understand logical argument, but try to get your head round this.

First you say that the fact that women are underrepresented in science isn't all down to socialisation (implying that you believe in ladybrains as generally unsuited to science). Every time someone like you makes a comment like this which is read or heard by a girl, you are discouraging girls from being scientists by implying that they're not suited to it (just like spannasaurus's physics teacher - and mine, incidentally, back in the 70s).

Then you ask why girls don't just do science anyway, because no one is stopping them. Well, no, they're not actually stopping them, but people like you are discouraging them with your assertion that there is something in girls' brains that makes them less likely to be good at science.

I can see how it has an impact to an extent, yes. But if I really wanted to study physics, I don't think disapproval would stop me. I don't think it would get in the way of my love for a subject. I'd reason that I want to study physics, not start a meth lab, and that the disapproval is completely weird and unreasonable since studying physics is clearly a positive thing.

But maybe some are more prone to being influenced.

Having said that, I did internalise the boy-sport thing and never played football again, even though I loved it when the girls were allowed to play it one day only at primary. I was only 10 though.

Why are females are still so vastly under-represented in the STEM subjects and careers today? Why don't more girls just study those subjects anyway, if that's what they want to do? Nobody is actually stopping them.

It takes a long, long time to unwind the long held societal view that women can only be teachers, nurses or mothers.

Umm. I used to work on my own car as teen. I have also worked as a landscaper and do a huge proportion of the DIY at our house. I would suggest that a lot of that comes from exposure to such things as a child and not being able to afford to have someone else do these things.

And I know fathers who took the decision to work their jobs around child care. However in my experience it is usually the male people in the families who earn the most so therefore the family finances are skewed towards the male staying working full time and the female people taking on the brunt of the caring if they don’t opt for childcare. And that lower pay is usually the result of systemic negative sex discrimination.

@OldCrone "I know you've said that you don't really understand logical argument, but try to get your head round this."

Eh? I don't think I said that.

Agree with your second para. I would never say these things IRL.

You wrote: "Well, no, they're not actually stopping them, but people like you are discouraging them with your assertion that there is something in girls' brains that makes them less likely to be good at science."

No, if I had a daughter or a female student who showed interest in a STEM topic, I'd encourage and cheerlead them all the way. It's 100 percent possible for a woman to be a brilliant scientist. I'm saying that, due to the crazily uneven sex numbers in those fields, I always assumed there were female-leaning and male-leaning brains - but I also knew that this this doesn't necessarily apply to individuals, as people are so varied.

And yes, maybe I am part of the problem. I'm open and willing to learn.

"you are discouraging girls from being scientists by implying that they're not suited to it (just like spannasaurus's physics teacher - and mine, incidentally, back in the 70s)."

Well, that's the difference between me and your teachers. If I had a girl in front of me who wanted to do physics, I wouldn't dream of discouraging that individual and would make sure she had everything she needed to succeed. There's a big difference between actually telling girls that they're not up to STEM - and seriously thinking that no girls can do it - and noting the tendencies in large populations.

You're almost there.

The girl who is really determined to study physics won't be stopped by social disapproval or sexist teachers.

The girl who thinks 'well, there are a lot of other subjects I like' might decide to do something else.

Boys don't have to overcome this disapproval in order to do science subjects. In fact, they're likely to be encouraged to do them.

People like you who insist that there are girls' subjects and boys' subjects are perpetuating the problem.

I need to do some reading on this topic. I don't have a lot more to contribute until I do.

I always assumed there were female-leaning and male-leaning brains

Because you assume that females lean towards nurturing and empathy and males lean towards logic and problem solving?

With respect, you really need to ditch these sexist and outdated concepts.

I’m so glad that in the 70s and 80s I had teachers (and parents) that encouraged girls to follow their strengths.

Bingo.

And there we have more on the still current sex discrimination facing our girls. Or , the still current axis of oppression for them.

I suspect that ingrained societal attitudes like those expressed above are why girls perform better in single-sex schools. In my girls' grammar school, there were plenty of outstanding brains doing physics, chemistry, further maths...all that jazz, and noone was telling them that their fragile little girlie-brains couldn't cope.

On the JKR / IW thing, I am fed up of having to go high when they go low.

I'm REALLY struggling with the idea that there's no such thing as brains that are more female and brains that are more male, and that each type usually corresponds to the rest of the body's sex.

For a comment like this to make sense, you'd have to define what you mean by a female (or male) brain, other than a brain in a female (or male) body.

(And yes, if one subscribes to the idea of overall male/female brains, it's a short step from there to believing that you could end up with a brain/body mismatch.)

Brain in the wrong body? How does that happen? If a female brain is a brain in a female body, how could that end up in a male body? (Unless someone managed to transplant a brain, I suppose.)

But you've already accepted that women (and men) can have any personalities or preferences, even if they're not typical for their sex, so there can't be any definition of a female brain other than a brain in a female body, can there?

India makes me laugh. He claims to be Gen Z.

India is 60 this year. He doesn't know what Gen Z means does he? 😂

I guess if he sees his transition as a rebirth then he might be gen z? I don't know when he transitioned.

ETA: I. Don't mean that Makes him Gen Z. But it could be his logic.

It’s as ridiculous as claiming to be a woman with a cervix. It’s as if India doesn’t know what being a woman actually involves.

Women aren’t vastly underrepresented in science subjects now, are they? They were the majority on the science track at my DC’s school in Scandinavia. Most doctors are female in many countries now. When I have to do with science professionals through my work, they’re usually female. Still underrepresented, especially higher in the career tree and especially in maths fields, but the numbers of fields in which that’s true are shrinking and I don’t think ‘vastly’ applies any more.

@OldCrone Brain in the wrong body? How does that happen? If a female brain is a brain in a female body, how could that end up in a male body? (Unless someone managed to transplant a brain, I suppose.)

Oh, there was a theory that I talk about upthread. Apparently it's wrong. It says we all start off female and then, if a foetus is genetically coded to be male, this happens via a process that kicks off with a spurt of male hormones at six weeks' gestation, and that the body is masculinised first and the brain is affected last, and that it's a complex process that sometimes doesn't complete, but that's how you can end up with a female brain in a male body and is why there are more trans men than trans women.

But like I said, it's apparently wrong.

@OldCrone But you've already accepted that women (and men) can have any personalities or preferences, even if they're not typical for their sex, so there can't be any definition of a female brain other than a brain in a female body, can there?

No, I guess not. And maybe all our apparent sex differences ARE to do with socialisation.

There is absolutely no such thing as a male or female brain, @ThisFluentBiscuit . https://theconversation.com/you-dont-have-a-male-or-female-brain-the-more-brains-scientists-study-the-weaker-the-evidence-for-sex-differences-158005

But if I really wanted to study physics, I don't think disapproval would stop me. I don't think it would get in the way of my love for a subject.

The point is that too many girls don't get as far as discovering they have that love in the first place, because all the subliminal social messaging and role models they are getting are saying "Don't look over there, there's no people like you over there, look over here! Lots of girls over here!"

My husband and I both love tinkering, repairing and making stuff. But he is much more skilled than I am because his dad used to do it with him as a kid and mine didn't. It never occured to my dad to suggest it or me to ask to try. Whereas his dad used to get him (but not his sister) involved when he was repairing things or working on the car, and so DH gained interest, skills and confidence.

But then there is other research that shows there ARE differences.

So who's right? The monkey toys in the below are interesting.

stanmed.stanford.edu/how-mens-and-womens-brains-are-different/

@FlirtsWithRhinos "The point is that too many girls don't get as far as discovering they have that love in the first place, because all the subliminal social messaging and role models they are getting are saying "Don't look over there, there's no people like you over there, look over here! Lots of girls over here!" "
I think we need to be really careful with this nature vs nurture debate.
I was at a state girls' school in the 90s and there were lots of programs to help us engage with STEM subjects, and lots of visiting inspirational speakers who said many of the things being said on this thread, about sex differences all coming down to nurture.
We got sick of the implication that we were so weak and pliable we couldn't possibly know our own minds or desires. Which, if you think about it, is also a very longstanding and sexist belief about girls and women.

Things that are typically thought to be "masculine" or more for male people are given much higher value than things associated with female people (eg nursing and teaching).

So there's two sorts of sexism happening at once: these things are only for the male people and these things are only for the female people. But, also, the things that are for the female people are of lesser worth than the things that are for the male people.
We need to fight both kinds of sexism, not give into one in order to tackle the other.

I suggest watching ‘the gender neutral school’. An excellent documentary that showed quite clearly the impact of social conditioning on child development.

I do all the diy in our house. Taught by my granny who learnt during the war. She said they just had to get in with it as there were no men and they realised they were perfectly capable.

Isn't there something about equality of opportunity, not equality of outcome?

So we haven’t failed if balance between men and women isn’t observed in every field.

I think women have something unique to offer in the first 6months/year (?) of a child’s life.

Women can definitely do anything men can do, bar certain feats of strength.
I hold to old fashioned expectations of gentlemanly behaviour because I am genuinely short of the energy and strength needed for standing, bag carrying and wrestling with heavy doors. It’s easier for most of them!

Men need a hell of a lot more practice before I trust they have the same skills and flexibility as your average women. But they tend not to recognise the skill needed in home based tasks and so don’t try that hard.