Protesters disrupt gender critical discussion at Oxford

[Igneococcus]

Has this been shared yet:
https://www.thetimes.com/article/437977a2-483b-43dc-bf6d-b111c44b9b08?shareToken=d987606e90e4778acb47a037cfd44702

Sorry - voluntary severance. And a good few threats of compulsory redundancy now, too.

@SerafinasGoose thank you.

Its worth remembering because many younger people have this false idea that in the past not everyone was able to go to university for free.

In fact prior to Blair declaring everybody would be more employable if they had been to university / had a degree (some say this ruined nursing as a career) only a tiny % of the country went to universities.

Either because they were rich enough to pay the fees, or because their local authority decided they were one of the few who would get a grant.

Most other people either did apprentiships or office based work _ learning eg articled clerks.

So even if Blair was right that everybody with a degree was more employable he didn't work out how the country would pay for it.

Now that students are the customers who are paying for a learning experience, learning seems to have become the least part of being at university.

Another Blair sleight of hand was shackling many schools and hospitals in long term debt to pay back the PPI that he used to show case his improvement of education and health. So next time you hear a hospital is short on money it may well be under funding but it will also be that they are servicing a never ending debt.

Its worth remembering because many younger people have this false idea that in the past everyone was able to go to university for free.

In fact prior to Blair declaring everybody would be more employable if they had been to university / had a degree (some say this ruined nursing as a career) only a tiny % of the country went to universities.

Either because they were rich enough to pay the fees, or because their local authority decided they were one of the few who would get a grant.

UK students didn't pay fees before Blair's changes, so they did go to university for free. All UK students got a grant, but this was means tested on their parents' income, and it would only be enough to live on if you got a full grant. Even those with wealthy parents got a minimum grant, but this wasn't enough to live on without help from parents or a part-time job.

You're right about it only being a tiny % who went to university though. That's because it was only supposed to be for the most academically able.

Of my school cohort starting secondary in 1964, some left school at 15 to go into work, many left after O levels/CSE's (or a mixture) to go to technical or agricultural college. About 15% to 20% went into the sixth form, with about half going on to university and half to teacher training college, and the odd one or two going to work in places like banks which demanded A levels. So in line with the average for the time of 8% going to university.

So in line with the average for the time of 8% going to university.

Is that right. I didn't have time to check and thought it was around 12 to 15%

Funny that the UK was able to function with ony 8% University education!

That's because it was only supposed to be for the most academically able.

Well yes and no, the back bone of universities in the past was a sort of finishing school for upper class boys. Who often through family money got accepted with no expectation of achieving any learning towards employment.

The UK student grant was a bit of a geographical lottery as I dont think all local authorities could afford the same number. But were based on academic results. That's why for many the Grammar School system was so important. ie at quite a young age your probability of being one of the few to go on to university was decided by the 11+.

So in line with the average for the time of 8% going to university.
Is that right. I didn't have time to check and thought it was around 12 to 15%

It was about 8% at university and a similar number at polytechnics or other HE colleges, which are all now universities.

The UK student grant was a bit of a geographical lottery as I dont think all local authorities could afford the same number. But were based on academic results.

That's not my recollection. I've just checked, and the 1962 Education Act required local authorities to give grants to students on degree courses.

Well yes and no, the back bone of universities in the past was a sort of finishing school for upper class boys. Who often through family money got accepted with no expectation of achieving any learning towards employment.

Possibly, if you go back far enough in time. Which century are you thinking of?

I went to University in the late 1990s based upon meeting Alevel grades.
Now there appears to be more of the 'fun' courses and the grade requirements can be low. It seems like the easy option young people can take before they need to grow up and take on responsibilities (and saddles them with lifelong debt!).

I've just checked, and the 1962 Education Act required local authorities to give grants to students on degree courses.

Certainly wasn't true of the council where I grew up.

Are you saying that if a unversity accepted a student that whatever area they lived in that local authority HAD to give a grant?

Now there appears to be more of the 'fun' courses and the grade requirements can be low.

If you expand participation from 15% to 40% then you have to lower the entry requirements. And lower the standards of the courses (or some of them at least).

I've never understood what the point was. Get nearly half the population saddled with enormous debts for the sake of a qualification which in many cases isn't worth the paper it's written on.

Ewan Blair has helped the movement towards apprenticeships, he has more sense than his dad.

That's my understanding of the Act, yes. Also what I remember from when I was at university (early 80s).

It looks as though it was repealed in 1999, but I don't know if there were other changes before that.

https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/Eliz2/10-11/12/enacted

1Local education authority awards for first degree university courses and comparable courses in United Kingdom

(1)It shall be the duty of every local education authority, subject to and in accordance with regulations made under this Act, to bestow awards on persons who—

(a)are ordinarily resident in the area of the authority, and

(b)possess the requisite educational qualifications,

in respect of their attendance at courses to which this section applies.

(2)This section shall apply to such full-time courses at universities, colleges or other institutions in Great Britain and Northern Ireland as may for the time being be designated by or under the regulations for the purposes of this section as being first degree courses or comparable to first degree courses; and for the purposes of the preceding subsection the requisite educational qualifications, in relation to any course, shall be such as may be prescribed by or under the regulations, either generally or with respect to that course or a class of courses which includes that course.

For anyone interested in this (derail?) about grants This seems quite detailed, but a long read.
http://historyandpolicy.org/policy-papers/papers/university-fees-in-historical-perspective/

I was in university in Ireland at a time when afaicr there were no fees, but there was a 'registration fee' which my parents very kindly paid. There were some fees I didn't qualify - most of us didn't. There was certainly a 'holding pen for rich kids' element in the people doing the BA programme in Cork in those days, but it was also possible to get stuck in and learn stuff. Not a load of jobs - many people emigrated after graduation - I was very lucky to get (low paid, contract to contract) work within my own area of academic interest.

DworkinWasRight · 14/02/2025 17:41

Are these supposed to be our brightest and best? Heaven help us.

I know, right? They state that they want to "protest transphobia," they can't even get the basic grammar right; they want to "protest against transphobia." They probably pronounce protest with a long o, as well.

um

I pronouce protest with a long o. Does that make me a bad person?(1)

Except if it's an element in protestant. That o gets shortened.

(1) I don't really care. bad person out and proud.

Christinapple · 17/02/2025

This could also be seen as inciting hate against LGBT IMO people....

By people who haven't taken their tablets.

Because they’ve been told it’s ‘inclusive’ and all good people of the left are ‘inclusive’ , and to not be inclusive is to be ‘fascist’ . And they have just bought all this without really thinking it through.

And because there is no kudos in standing up for women’s rights but a lot of kudos in standing up for ‘trans rights’. So they get to feel edgy and counter culture whilst safely being mainstream and accepted, with there never being any cost to themselves for their ‘activism’.

Protest doesn’t have a long ‘o’? Well fuck!!! I am amazed at what I learn on MN. I always used both according the context. ‘I protest’ with a short ‘o’, and ‘Going to a protest’ with a long ‘o’.

Protest something, rather than protest against something - American usage. They get this crap online from US sources, directly or ultimately.

Ditto.

Helleofabore · Today 08:50

Protest doesn’t have a long ‘o’? Well fuck!!! I am amazed at what I learn on MN. I always used both according the context. ‘I protest’ with a short ‘o’, and ‘Going to a protest’ with a long ‘o

Sorry, I didn't make that very clear; I agree with you 100%

Many people use the long o version when saying that they want to protest against something, including most news readers.

I didn't make that very clear

LOL

Lovely ferret, does it go forwards as well?

just joshing, you know I love you @SinnerBoy

they get to feel edgy and counter culture whilst safely being mainstream and accepted, with there never being any cost to themselves for their ‘activism’

You've hit the nail on the head there @Standingforever. They're playing at being radical and progressive in a very, very 'safe space', ironically.