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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Sadiq Khan has no idea what grooming gangs are.

264 replies

NoNever · 16/01/2025 19:46

Sadiq Khan either really doesn’t know which makes him incompetent or is pretending not to know which makes him complicit.

https://x.com/sammywoodhouse1/status/1879943683082186847

x.com

https://x.com/sammywoodhouse1/status/1879943683082186847

OP posts:
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Ereshkigalangcleg · 17/01/2025 13:25

What @porridgecake said.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 17/01/2025 13:33

Though, of course, it was only white girls they targeted in this way - so there is an element of race in it too. I imagine Pakistani/Muslim girs are viewed in a different way...and the abuse, if there is any, will be in the context of the home or the specific ethnic community. Honour based codes, forced marriage and so on.

I think there is evidence that some Muslim girls were targeted in similar ways, I'd be interested to know if the cases are linked and if there was any crossover. I read this report from 2013 last week, and some of the tone I found quite dismissive of the gangs known to be targeting white working class girls and almost like its main purpose was to present a gotcha to shut people up about the majority. But overall it's an important and valuable report with some harrowing and heart rending stories and I hope it's been built on by groups providing support to Muslim women and girls. But I fear not.

It also acknowledges some of the problems culturally that Muslim women and girls have in reporting abuse.

www.mwnuk.co.uk/go_files/resources/UnheardVoices.pdf

Iwanttoliveonamountain · 17/01/2025 13:36

Shortshriftandlethal · 17/01/2025 12:35

The issue is children. White working class girls in care matter too. The issue at hand is predominantly Asian, predominantly Pakistani, grooming gangs in numerous towns and cities with large Pakistani populations such as Rotherham, Rochdale, Bradford, Telford...and the reasons why these specific types and patterns of child abuse are still happening is because people don't want to face that there are ethnic and cultural issues at play, for fear of being labelled as 'racist'.

Edited

Check out the meaning of the word ‘predominantly’. It doesn’t mean 13% of the total does it. I accept you’ve been brainwashed by the media they love it they love it when you people suck it up.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 17/01/2025 13:39

Check out the meaning of the word ‘predominantly’. It doesn’t mean 13% of the total does it. I accept you’ve been brainwashed by the media they love it they love it when you people suck it up.

This is a straw man. She wasn't talking about the total. Try to read posts properly before jumping in. No one has been "brainwashed by the media" here, this is the feminist board, we've been discussing it for years. Pointless comment.

TheCatsTongue · 17/01/2025 13:39

If there were statistics showing that car accidents far outweighed the amount of rail accidents and then someone came along and said "it's all transport with wheels, so we need to look at trains" you would question why they didn't want to look at the cars.

The grooming gangs are related to the culture and set up of those areas, from the taxi drivers knowing the kebab shop owners etc.

I don't recall people going on about Jimmy Savile and then saying "let's not worry about him because some Asian men are dodgy too".

TheCatsTongue · 17/01/2025 13:40

Brainwashed by the media?

The same media who refused to talk about it for years, and even this week have tried to bury the story.

Shortshriftandlethal · 17/01/2025 13:50

Iwanttoliveonamountain · 17/01/2025 13:36

Check out the meaning of the word ‘predominantly’. It doesn’t mean 13% of the total does it. I accept you’ve been brainwashed by the media they love it they love it when you people suck it up.

I'm well aware of the meaning of predominantly, which is why I used it. You, on the otherhand seem oblivious, or maybe even wilfuly blind, to the issues here?

And that sort of wilful blindness is indeed another of the issues. As well as your overly confrontational and aggressive approach.

Who are " you people"?

Iwanttoliveonamountain · 17/01/2025 14:08

If you think you use the world predominantly correctly, then this whole thread has absolutely no meaning or logic . good luck I’m out.

BackToLurk · 17/01/2025 14:11

Iwanttoliveonamountain · 17/01/2025 14:08

If you think you use the world predominantly correctly, then this whole thread has absolutely no meaning or logic . good luck I’m out.

I suspect she understands what "predominantly" means better than you understand the meaning of the phrase "the issue at hand" that precedes it.

CatusFlatus · 17/01/2025 14:18

SugarandSpiceandAllThingsNaice · 16/01/2025 23:09

For my last post, I will reiterate that the majority of group based child sexual exploitation (the formal term for grooming gang) are done by white perpetrators:

It is wrong to say group-based child abuse is predominantly committed by Pakistani men, the National Police Chiefs' Council (NPCC) has said.
Figures from the police database show where ethnicity is recorded, that in the first three quarters of 2024 - 85% of group-based child abusers were white, while 3.9% were of Pakistani origin.”

It is a problem of grooming gangs of which some include British-Pakistani men, and victims are not just white girls.

Anyone who thinks otherwise has fallen for racist propaganda. That is why many of us refuse to accept it- because it’s not a fact at all that we have a special issue with British Pakistani men raping white girls.

Edited

Do you know what percentage of the male population of the UK is white British and what percentage is Pakistani British?

That would show if there's a particular issue with Pakistani British rape gangs at a national level or not.

Then there's the rates and populations at a local level to consider, which will most likely be different to the national figures.

This needs to be considered without pre-judging the outcome either way, because if you start with a belief you can always find a statistic that reinforces that belief.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 17/01/2025 14:20

This needs to be considered without pre-judging the outcome either way, because if you start with a belief you can always find a statistic that reinforces that belief.

Exactly.

ForestAtTheSea · 17/01/2025 14:53

The first LSE article linked is not a study, it is an article written by a researcher at LSE. They add at the end of the text:
"This piece was published on Medium by Tahir Abbas. This article gives the views of the author, not the position of LSE Religion and Global Society nor the London School of Economics and Political Science."

While there are some good points, one sentence was somewhat strange: "The narrative has been described as a moral panic, where public concern over a social issue is disproportionately high, often focusing on a specific group identified as “folk devils.”

How can the concern on the topic of CSE be "disproportionately high"?

Then follows a reference to previous investigations and reports, with the conclusion: "By focusing on ethnicity, the media and political discourse have diverted attention from the broader context of child exploitation—rooted in poverty, institutional neglect, and gender inequality." The author focuses on the systemic failures.

These are very important factors, too, however, they are all on the side of the victims (them being in care, for example) and the police (not believing the victims). They show the situation of the victims and the reaction.

But: the actual crime still belongs to the criminals. Just because someone sees that there are vulnerable people doesn't mean they have to misuse the situation.

The systemic failures are step 1: vulnerable situation and step 3: reaction. But step 2 is the action by the criminals. Without the action there wouldn't have been the problem that the police did not take this seriously (which is wrong of course, too).
You cannot take the actual misuse and the perpetrators out of the equation and say it's only the other aspects - which were hugely problematic, too, and I am not minimizing that.

https://blogs.lse.ac.uk/religionglobalsociety/2025/01/the-grooming-gang-debate-navigating-race-politics-and-justice-in-the-uk/

Igmum · 17/01/2025 15:24

Maaate · 17/01/2025 12:41

I have no doubt some are using this to push a racist agenda, but (once again for the hard of thinking) they are only able to do this because the police and social services failed to do their jobs and ignored what was happening.

This 100

We live in a society that has effectively decriminalised rape, a crime in which perpetrators are almost guaranteed to never be prosecuted/walk free. Given that, it is hardly surprising that groups and individuals of every nationality, take advantage of the system to do evil and that those actions continue to this day. We have to address the misogyny at the heart of the system.

porridgecake · 17/01/2025 16:22

Raja Miah is a very brave man.

NoNever · 17/01/2025 16:39

The whole conversation is linked in the first few responses. It doesn’t show SK any better.

OP posts:
Ereshkigalangcleg · 17/01/2025 17:12

Raja Miah is a very brave man.

He is.

Flustration · 17/01/2025 17:19

Shortshriftandlethal · 17/01/2025 13:02

Though, of course, it was only white girls they targeted in this way - so there is an element of race in it too. I imagine Pakistani/Muslim girs are viewed in a different way...and the abuse, if there is any, will be in the context of the home or the specific ethnic community. Honour based codes, forced marriage and so on.

Of course, I don't think anyone would disagree with that. The concept of 'other' is an incredibly important one in most abuse cases. Multiple studies have showed that UK sex tourists use 'otherisation' to justify having sex with children from other cultures. Even if the girls had been Muslim I'm sure it would have been the wrong sort of Muslim (look at what happens in war zones).

Why did these men choose those girls?

Other than simple opportunity, they believed these girls were 'other'. They believed these girls were different from the girls in their own communities and that it was normal for them to be treated this way.

But disgusting men like this exist everywhere. The most important question is why did they get away with it for so long? And the reason for that, in my option, is because the people and systems that were meant to protect them from predators believed in the same thing

They also believed these girls were 'other'. They also believed these girls were different from the girls in their household and social circles. They also believed it was normal for girls from this sort of background to be treated like this.

I absolutely welcome further case reviews into what happened but I will be incredibly pissed off if they miss the misogyny and class discrimination that enabled it to continue.

TellYourSugargliderISaidHi · 17/01/2025 17:22

NoNever · 16/01/2025 23:54

And it’s still a problem that Khan is either clueless or pretending not to know something he actually knows. Who asked the question or how the question was asked doesn’t really matter. In the end, all he’s doing is protecting the grooming gangs at the expense of their victims.

Yes, sorry children who are being habitually sexually abused by gangs, we can’t help you right now because some people don’t like the way they’re being asked the question about it, and their feelings are more important than your experience of violent sexual abuse. Even though a lot of you will actually also be victims of racism yourself too, the rich people who feel like they’re on the receiving end of that / want to virtue signal about it are more important. If you could just conveniently wait about 10 years until it’s too late and you’re forgotten about that would be great thanks.

DesperatleySeekingWeightLoss · 17/01/2025 19:35

Derailing a little with an observation, but I wish that this thread was moved TO the Chat Board, FROM FWR, as opposed to the other way round as what often happens when we discuss anything remotely about men.

I've always thought that Khan has soulless, dead eyes. He produces in me a visceral response of fear.

duc748 · 17/01/2025 19:57

DesperatleySeekingWeightLoss · 17/01/2025 19:35

Derailing a little with an observation, but I wish that this thread was moved TO the Chat Board, FROM FWR, as opposed to the other way round as what often happens when we discuss anything remotely about men.

I've always thought that Khan has soulless, dead eyes. He produces in me a visceral response of fear.

There's something about those weird shirts with no tie he always wears, makes him look like a low-rent Bond villain.

NoNever · 17/01/2025 20:27

DesperatleySeekingWeightLoss · 17/01/2025 19:35

Derailing a little with an observation, but I wish that this thread was moved TO the Chat Board, FROM FWR, as opposed to the other way round as what often happens when we discuss anything remotely about men.

I've always thought that Khan has soulless, dead eyes. He produces in me a visceral response of fear.

I disagree. I think the rape of girls and women while politicians pretend they have no idea what anyone is talking about is very much a women’s rights issue.

OP posts:
Ereshkigalangcleg · 17/01/2025 20:59

Multiple studies have showed that UK sex tourists use 'otherisation' to justify having sex with children from other cultures.

Do you not think we should look at the common features of men who travel abroad for sex with children? Or should we just say "they're a small proportion of all child abuse so we don't need to look at it separately"?

Zita60 · 17/01/2025 21:52

SugarandSpiceandAllThingsNaice · 17/01/2025 10:13

The point is not the absolute number of British-Pakistani grooming gangs, but the fact that the rate of this type of crime is significantly higher among British-Pakistani man.

I got that point, but my point is that is not a fact. Reference the police data on this and the studies I have linked in the thread. There is no ethnicity that is over-represented beyond normal statistical noise when it comes to group based sexual exploitation of children in the U.K..

But part of that is recognising that there seems to be something about the culture these British-Pakistani men exist in that tells them this is acceptable behaviour.
It would have to be British culture then as they offend at essentially the same rate as all other British men.

… it’s still valid to acknowledge this aspect of the problem of the gangs, that British-Pakistani men are disproportionately more likely to be involved in them.
No, they are not more likely to be involved in them. Again look at the links posted upthread.

According to police figures, it is a fact that British-Pakistani men are disproportionately more likely to commit this type of crime.

"Pakistanis are up to four times more likely to be responsible for child sex grooming offences reported to police than the general population, previously unreleased data suggest.

Figures from all 43 forces in England and Wales show 13.7 per cent of child sexual exploitation "grooming offences" in the first nine months of last year involved Pakistanis. In 2023, they accounted for 6.9 per cent of the grooming crimes reported to police.

This is proportionately between two and four times higher than their representation in the general population where Pakistanis account for 2.7 per cent, according to the 2021 census.

The figures were revealed on Friday by the team behind the first national police scheme to collect and analyse police recorded “group-based” child sexual abuse including the ethnic background of perpetrators.

The “Hydrant Programme” was set up by police after criticism by the 2022 Independent Inquiry into Child Sexual Abuse by Alexis Jay of the “widespread failure” to collect “good quality” data on the abusers, victims and the offences."

Daily Telegraph, 10th January 2025

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2025/01/10/pakistanis-four-times-more-likely-grooming/

https://archive.ph/tFCd6#selection-2953.0-2979.208

Flustration · 17/01/2025 22:44

Ereshkigalangcleg · 17/01/2025 20:59

Multiple studies have showed that UK sex tourists use 'otherisation' to justify having sex with children from other cultures.

Do you not think we should look at the common features of men who travel abroad for sex with children? Or should we just say "they're a small proportion of all child abuse so we don't need to look at it separately"?

Of course I think we should. What about my posts have suggested otherwise??

Ereshkigalangcleg · 17/01/2025 23:04

It's the same thing.