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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

CPS change the proposed 'sex by deception re gender' legal guidance

713 replies

Chariothorses · 14/12/2024 13:29

Following public objections, the CPS announced yesterday they have changed the proposed legal guidance on Rape and Serious Sexual Offences (RASSO), specifically the guidance on “Deception as to gender”, which can be found in Chapter 6 Consent, to 'Deception as to sex'. Rape and Sexual Offences - Chapter 6: Consent | The Crown Prosecution Service.

The outcome of the consultation is available here: Consultation on the Deception as to Gender section in the Rape and Serious Sexual Offences (RASSO) legal guidance | The Crown Prosecution Service.

summary of consultation responses here: Consultation on CPS guidance on Deception as to Gender - Summary of Responses | The Crown Prosecution Service.

There are ongoing problems re ideological capture by trans lobbyists and misogyny within the CPS so thanks to all who contributed to the changes they have reluctantly introduced.

Consultation on CPS guidance on Deception as to Gender - Summary of Responses | The Crown Prosecution Service

https://www.cps.gov.uk/publication/consultation-cps-guidance-deception-gender-summary-responses

OP posts:
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18
GailBlancheViola · 17/12/2024 13:36

Ereshkigalangcleg · 17/12/2024 13:27

You do as you see fit @ButterflyHatched but the onus is on you to gain meaningful consent to sex without deceiving people, not them.

And don't be surprised if you fail to do so and find yourself in Court.

TooExtraImmatureCheddar · 17/12/2024 14:06

ButterflyHatched · 17/12/2024 13:10

Disclosure
Isn't
Safe.
Our privacy is protected by law.

We can't know people hold negative views toward trans people unless they tell us. How can we avoid something we don't know about?

We're pretty good at working out when someone is prejudiced against us but sometimes people can be good at hiding it! Sometimes they keep it secret for years and years!

It's dangerous to enter into a relationship with someone inclined to do you harm and for similar reasons it's dangerous to out yourself in general life so for safety reasons I think it's probably best to get clarification that a prospective partner doesn't secretly hold negative or discriminatory views toward you.

It would be nice if the bearer of these negative views volunteered them, but I suppose if we normalise asking then it removes all ambiguity. I would suggest that trans people pursue that conversation early in a relationship and check in periodically just in case those views have changed.

Disclosure in a way controlled by you is a lot safer than someone working it out when you’re alone and naked with them. You could disclose it by text, for example.

You’re trying to argue that stealthing is great and a right that trans people should have, despite the obvious risks it brings to both their own safety and the risk of committing a criminal offence. It’s utterly illogical.

ButterflyHatched · 17/12/2024 14:33

TooExtraImmatureCheddar · 17/12/2024 14:06

Disclosure in a way controlled by you is a lot safer than someone working it out when you’re alone and naked with them. You could disclose it by text, for example.

You’re trying to argue that stealthing is great and a right that trans people should have, despite the obvious risks it brings to both their own safety and the risk of committing a criminal offence. It’s utterly illogical.

It's both the best way to ensure congruence and minimise gender dysphoria, AND the best way to protect yourself from direct transphobia. If the bigots do not know you exist, it's a lot harder for them to actively abuse you.

Why not disclose anti-trans views? Why would you lie about holding them? Why would you hide them when they're the best way to actively repel trans people and anyone who disagrees with them from ever wanting to sleep with you?

ResisterOfTwaddleRex · 17/12/2024 14:34

This reply has been withdrawn

This message has been withdrawn at the poster's request

BaronessEllarawrosaurus · 17/12/2024 14:41

I'm not anti trans people but I am all for open honesty including being fully aware of any factors that could have a bearing in a decision to consent to have sex with someone. of course according to butters that makes me anti trans. Funny how perspectives can be so different.

You can not give informed consent without open and honest disclosure. As the partner of someone with a dsd he made sure I was fully aware of the implications before we started a sexual relationship.

Chariothorses · 17/12/2024 14:52

Off the point slightly, but I would like to acknowledge here my respect for mumsnetters I have admired for years, with a lot more patience than me!

Others reading may not realise that the only stipulation for secrecy is when you learn someone has a GRC in an official capacity ie due to your job. It doesn't stop women complaining eg about the bloke who came into the women's loos. (Mentioning as sometimes trans activists try and mislead, even threaten, the public about the secrecy clause, so always wise to go back to the source).
https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2004/7/section/22

And this thread does demonstrate well why the amendments to the CPS proposal (deception as to your sex) regarding Rape and serious sex offences (RASSO) have been necessary.

OP posts:
theilltemperedqueenofspacetime · 17/12/2024 14:53

ButterflyHatched · 17/12/2024 14:33

It's both the best way to ensure congruence and minimise gender dysphoria, AND the best way to protect yourself from direct transphobia. If the bigots do not know you exist, it's a lot harder for them to actively abuse you.

Why not disclose anti-trans views? Why would you lie about holding them? Why would you hide them when they're the best way to actively repel trans people and anyone who disagrees with them from ever wanting to sleep with you?

Being a heterosexual man who is only attracted to women, and does not wish to have sex with a gay man =/= being transphobic or homophobic. It's a personal preference, not a philosophical position.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 17/12/2024 14:55

Illuminating given the posts on the book thread though

Which thread @ResisterOfTwaddleRex ?

ArabellaScott · 17/12/2024 14:56

TooExtraImmatureCheddar · 17/12/2024 14:06

Disclosure in a way controlled by you is a lot safer than someone working it out when you’re alone and naked with them. You could disclose it by text, for example.

You’re trying to argue that stealthing is great and a right that trans people should have, despite the obvious risks it brings to both their own safety and the risk of committing a criminal offence. It’s utterly illogical.

'Illogical' is one word for it.

MrsOvertonsWindow · 17/12/2024 15:14

ArabellaScott · 17/12/2024 14:56

'Illogical' is one word for it.

Criminal is another word. But as we see in so many posts, abiding by the law, respect for others, the need to safeguard children or to refrain from promoting conspiracy theories about suicide comes a poor second to looking for opportunities to berate women with endless self indulgent whines about "anti trans".

Personally I reckon the poster is a plant by those seeking to convince us all of the inherent anti women, anti safeguarding children beliefs held by those intent on transitioning children.... but I could be wrong.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 17/12/2024 15:15

They deserve some kind of award if that's the case.

Chariothorses · 17/12/2024 15:17

@MrsOvertonsWindow You put it so well.

OP posts:
TWETMIRF · 17/12/2024 15:17

So Butters, if you were about to get it on with a chap and he says 'just want to check you're not a fella', would you be truthful and say yes you are or would you lie and say you're a woman?

Ereshkigalangcleg · 17/12/2024 15:17

Good question.

Helleofabore · 17/12/2024 15:24

Disclosure
Isn't
Safe.

and

Non
Disclosure
Isn't
Safe.

Yes, there are issues with disclosure. However, there ARE ways to do this before having sex with someone in a safe way.

Unless you wish to argue that you have used emotional coercion to ensure 'safety', ie. only wait until the person you are with has an emotional bond that means they are more vulnerable to emotional manipulation at the time of disclosure, then I don't see how it is safer to have waited.

Oh.... that's right... what a person doesn't know apparently won't hurt them, is that right? So if they never find out and you are no longer a sexual partner, so be it. They never found out. So that is ok, is that right?

Such honesty. How about, there are safety issues that arise from your personal decisions whether you disclose or not. Your framing of the greater danger being in disclosing first is not logical, unless you are counting on never telling someone after the fact or only telling when that person has significant emotional investment in the relationship which is an act of coercion in the case of a person's sex category.

And neither of those alternatives show any care for the other person involved at all. There is a name for that.

ButterflyHatched · 17/12/2024 15:32

BaronessEllarawrosaurus · 17/12/2024 14:41

I'm not anti trans people but I am all for open honesty including being fully aware of any factors that could have a bearing in a decision to consent to have sex with someone. of course according to butters that makes me anti trans. Funny how perspectives can be so different.

You can not give informed consent without open and honest disclosure. As the partner of someone with a dsd he made sure I was fully aware of the implications before we started a sexual relationship.

That's very reasonable. I don't think that advocating for open honesty in relationships makes you anti-trans at all, for ref.

Glad your partner felt safe to disclose his medical history with you - that's a pretty solid endorsement that you've given off sufficient good vibes to make it clear it wasn't going to be a problem to do so.

ButterflyHatched · 17/12/2024 15:35

theilltemperedqueenofspacetime · 17/12/2024 14:53

Being a heterosexual man who is only attracted to women, and does not wish to have sex with a gay man =/= being transphobic or homophobic. It's a personal preference, not a philosophical position.

I wholeheartedly agree with the text of this statement.

EmpressaurusKitty · 17/12/2024 15:42

ButterflyHatched · 17/12/2024 15:32

That's very reasonable. I don't think that advocating for open honesty in relationships makes you anti-trans at all, for ref.

Glad your partner felt safe to disclose his medical history with you - that's a pretty solid endorsement that you've given off sufficient good vibes to make it clear it wasn't going to be a problem to do so.

But why the hell would you start a sexual relationship with someone if you didn't know you could be honest with them about being male?

MarieDeGournay · 17/12/2024 16:27

ButterflyHatched Glad your partner felt safe to disclose his medical history with you - that's a pretty solid endorsement that you've given off sufficient good vibes to make it clear it wasn't going to be a problem to do so.

But it wouldn't be 'a problem' to disclose relevant medical history, such as the one referred to by the poster, in a timely manner. It's about honesty and consent, not 'good vibes or bad vibes'.

The timing is significant. To quote my earlier post 'If a transwomen, a.k.a. a biological male, sets their sights, unluckily, on a woman who turns out to be one of those awful GC terves' and discloses in a timely manner that they are trans - perhaps before the 9th G&TWink - the evening can be brought to a polite end:
'Sorry mate you're not my type'.

Full disclosure in a timely manner, decision on consent, conclusion of interaction - what's the problem?

Unless you are referring to men - it's true that their 'bad vibes' can turn nasty.
Apparently one of the reasons why transwomen want to use women's toilets is because of the bad vibes they get from men in the men's.

Hopefully these experiences of male 'bad vibe's are being addressed on more relevant sites than FWR on MN, where we already know all about it.

ButterflyHatched · 17/12/2024 17:16

TWETMIRF · 17/12/2024 15:17

So Butters, if you were about to get it on with a chap and he says 'just want to check you're not a fella', would you be truthful and say yes you are or would you lie and say you're a woman?

Yeesh, well that's a bad situation to be in.

To answer your question requires a fair bit of detail on situations posters will be familiar with and it's likely to not be a pleasant read, so this is an advance warning.

Suddenly being confronted with that question would be triggering the hell out of my existing fight or flight trauma responses and make me want to get the hell out of that situation ASAP in order to escape potential harm, so I'd be looking for the quickest safe exit that would protect me from disclosure and the potentially life-ruining implications it would hold.

If it came out of nowhere I can't say with any certainty if I'd be able to keep a cool head and gracefully find a safe way out without revealing how frightened the question had made me - a dangerous thing to reveal. It would depend on the wider context and what else I knew about the person in question, ultimately - I've had a lot of experience dealing with men like this over the years, unfortunately.

If I was alone in a remote place with this guy, especially without my own means of transportation, there would be a very real danger that disclosure could be life-threateningly dangerous. I couldn't trust that the man in question, having already hinted at holding negative opinions about trans people, would be likely to have much better views about women and consent in general - so even just firmly withdrawing consent in this context and asking to go home is already dangerous.

If I'm thinking quickly and it seems safe, I might try to respond with something along the lines of "That's an odd question - would it make a difference to you? I'm a feminist, by the way, and I have no interest in dating transphobes so I'm not sure this is going to work out. Let's save ourselves both a lot of time here."

Hopefully, if he isn't a creep, he'd take it as an opportunity to reflect on his own ideology - he's likely to meet plenty of other feminists in his life and this is going to be a common response.

If I was getting a sense that he was using it as a hypothetical question to confirm I shared his secret anti-trans views, and only the transness part would be the dangerous bit, I might instead try an angle of 'absolutely not and as a gender critical feminist I find the notion offensive, please apologise immediately' - it's a dangerous gambit but we're already in a dangerous situation and it might be enough to buy time and escape the immediate threat.

If the vibes are so bad that it's clearly not safe to even challenge him at all, then we're already into nightmare crisis survival mode. The only safe course at that point is to do or say nothing that could make the situation worse. I certainly wouldn't reveal I was trans at that moment.

I've had surgery, I never developed adult male muscle mass and strength and my appearance doesn't give any indication that I am trans, so at this point I'm effectively in the same situation any other non-trans woman is when having to find a safe way to communicate a lack of consent and escape danger after you've just discovered your partner is probably a hostile bigot and you don't want to stick around to find out.

The priority would be de-escalating the immediate situation and bringing him back 'on side'. A long, long time ago I used to have success with absurd humour or sarcastic deflection (a comically overblown and unambiguously OTT mock-confession like 'oh my god my terrible secret is out! All this time I have actually been Dave the Deceiver!') to break the tension and humanise myself in his eyes while creating the impression that it isn't a big deal; we're friends and can have a laugh about it, right?

In my unfortunately quite extensive experience, fragile men like this are often deeply insecure, deeply homophobic and terrified of being humiliated or made to look foolish, so the key thing would be to never make them feel powerless while assuring them that their masculinity (and heterosexuality) isn't in any way threatened.

De-escalate; disengage but don't do so suspiciously. We're chill people having a nice chill date. Nothing is harmed; nothing is threatened. His manhood and pride remain safely intact.

As soon as there's a suitable exit, take it and never ever engage again.

The reality of course is that it's incredibly difficult to Poker Face your way through these situations and fragile men get very unstable when their insecurity triggers. It's all very well having an idea of what you probably should do, but fear, proximity and context can throw that all out of the window.

It is not a situation I would ever want to get close to being in if possible, but I have been in similar ones quite a few times when I was younger unfortunately.

That was a rotten place to revisit. Not particularly interested in going there again, so thanks for the question I guess and I hope the answer was helpful but I'm really not interested in spending any more time on it.

ArabellaScott · 17/12/2024 17:38

It is not homophobic for a straight man to not want to have sex with another man.

ButterflyHatched · 17/12/2024 17:51

ArabellaScott · 17/12/2024 17:38

It is not homophobic for a straight man to not want to have sex with another man.

That's very true. Unfortunately you have no way of knowing whether he's homophobic or transphobic or not and the point where he's asking that question despite showing interest up until that point is a clear sign that he's attracted enough to you for it to potentially trigger an explosive homophobic/transphobic insecurity reaction.

I wouldn't take the risk at that point.

EmpressaurusKitty · 17/12/2024 17:56

So don’t take the risk. Don’t have sex with someone until you’ve got to know them well enough that you feel safe telling them you’re male.

ButterflyHatched · 17/12/2024 17:58

EmpressaurusKitty · 17/12/2024 17:56

So don’t take the risk. Don’t have sex with someone until you’ve got to know them well enough that you feel safe telling them you’re male.

If only it were that easy and all bigots clearly broadcast their bigotry so we can steer clear, eh?

yourhairiswinterfire · 17/12/2024 18:19

I might try to respond with something along the lines of "That's an odd question - would it make a difference to you? I'm a feminist, by the way, and I have no interest in dating transphobes so I'm not sure this is going to work out. Let's save ourselves both a lot of time here."

Sexual orientation isn't transphobic. Some people don't want to have sex with someone of a particular sex, it doesn't make them homophobic, transphobic or fragile, and they certainly don't need to 'reflect' on their sexual orientation, or 'ideology', as you put it. A heterosexual man not wanting to shag you does not make you a victim of some '-phobia' or '-ism'.

They have a right to say no and to not be duped into having sex with a male, and if you're not going to be honest about your sex with people you're trying to have sex with, then they're going to have to ask. Nothing odd about it, it's quite sensible and gives you the chance to avoid committing a sexual offence.