The latest fallouts in GC world

[Pluvia]

My terfing energy has been focussed elsewhere in recent months and I haven't been here or on TwiX or social media much. Now I've taken responsibility for tweeting/ comms on behalf of a small but potentially significant LGB group and I discover that there seems to be something going on — another schism — in GC world. Jane Clare Jones's name seems to be coming up a lot. Something seems to have gone on but I can't work out what.

If it was my own account I'd just ignore, but the followers of this account are bringing it up and seem to expect an opinion to be expressed or a side to be taken. Also I'm seeing a lot about 'ultras' and 'lites', which is new to me. Can anyone enlighten me? I need to tread carefully.

That’s certainly one way of looking at it. I feel that I’ve moved on to talking about the broad idea of whether men should have certain jobs, while you keep desperately trying to bring it back to JCJ vs KJK. But I guess we all have our own interpretation of things.

I don't recognise the picture or characterisation you are painting. Where have you seen these claims.....which threads?

Personally, I'd say JCJ seems to appeal more to other university educated academics who are actively identifying as 'feminists' ( because her writing is so self consciously dense and involved), whereas KJK seems to have a wider range of appeal to all sorts of people, for different kinds of reasons. None of which are class specific.

I am interested in people's working definitions of 'class' though. Personally, I tend to think money has not got that much to do with it.....it is more about culture, and level of education( to a great extent).

We do.

"Desperately" 😂 you're the one who couldn't grasp that it was a throwaway opinion about men not belonging on make up counters and think it has some deeper meaning that women here are "backpedaling"

I saw it in a comment above that I was tagged into. I have seen it fairly often.

Class is about more than education, of course money is part of it. It is about access to resources. So the Guardian article I read about a family living in a bender were not working class. Although they were living in a very poor home, the bender was on a parents estate, not on a piece of waste ground. Some upper class people have very low academic attainment - look at the royals and Princess Diana who married in. Their poor academic attainment does not make them working class. Princess Diana and Princess Anne not attending university does not make them working class.

Is it worth going back to that comment and pressing 'quote'? So that people understand what point you are making?

Can't you just read it?

You mean you want everyone to re read every single post to work out what it is you are referring to, rather than you just go to the post you are talking about and just press 'quote'?

Fine I scrolled back even though I am trying not to spend too much time on here. There were other comments too, but this comment is what started off the discussion. If you want to read more, you will have to scroll back. I am not quoting every comment about this issue.

I tend to stay away from this board as I believe in feminism, rather than conservative gender critical ideas.

What exactly does this mean? That you're a believer of gender identity ideology?

@Ereshkigalangcleg I believe that gender is an oppressive tool used by men as a class to oppress women as a class.

Which is what the vast majority of women on this board believe & why we so object to men reducing us to a stereotypical costume of femininity they can pop on and be told “yes you’re a woman” just because they’ve got a dress on and wear nail varnish

@Theeyeballsinthesky if that was true, why do I read women defending make up and home making?

Defending make up?!

😂

The Revlon will not be televised.

Do you think feminists don't wear make up or choose to stay at home or choose employment patterns that suit raising their children? That those who decide to do so are no feminist? Could you clarify please if that is what you mean?

Just read the thread.
But I am out. None of you discuss issues in good faith. Which is why all the feminists I know will not come near this board.

So.... men in make up - ok??? women in make up - not feminist????

I am checking to see if I misread the post.

Do you honestly believe that choosing to fit your employment or choose not to be in formal employment to focus on raising your child/children or to care for adults that you take on caring roles for is not a feminist decision?

Cross posted. If you understand feminism you know that feminists do all kinds of things which are part of their oppression.
And I said nothing about raising children and how best to do that. Nothing. So I have no idea why you brought that up.
Although I suspect it is to paint me as someone who does not consider mothers. You do know it was second wave feminists who fought for the recognition of taking care of children and housework as work? Who fought for the right to breastfeed in public places? Who fought for children's rights so they were not routinely smacked?

Agreed! Class is not so much tied to materialistic conditions as you implied earlier. It is more to do with culture/cultural capital.......but that can aslo be acquired.....and the most obvious route to that is education.

So by that reckoning KJK is clearly middle class?

So, I asked you to clarify "if that was true, why do I read women defending make up and home making?"

What exactly is home making in your opinion?

Because this:

"Although I suspect it is to paint me as someone who does not consider mothers. You do know it was second wave feminists who fought for the recognition of taking care of children and housework as work? Who fought for the right to breastfeed in public places? Who fought for children's rights so they were not routinely smacked?"

Does not seem consistent with your statement about "if that was true, why do I read women defending make up and home making?"

It does also seem to suggest that you think that conservatism, in any form, and feminism cannot go together. Maybe that feminism is always, and necessarily, a Left wing project with very specific criteria? ("women oppressed by the patriarchy" etc)

That would tend to position you ( if we had to take sides) on the JCJ side of the divide.....as she tends to reject anything that is not conspicuously in alignment with radical/Left articles of faith.

Powder tends to corrupt

I’m working class (in fact I’m more peasant class given my rural background). I’m the first person in my family to go to university and I could only do it because there were still grants available in those days - my parents could never have afforded to send me to an FE college to do A-levels and then on to university.

And I studied more than just feminist political theory on my course because we had a modular degree system with a wide range of subjects available.

And, by the way, that was a really snide remark to make about me that says more about your prejudices than you perhaps realise.

I was lucky enough to be able to take advantage of government grants to get my education and I’m bloody proud of the fact that I was able to complete third level education despite limiting factors in my background.

Home making is far more than housework and childcare. Home making springs from a philosophy of women making a comfortable and restful environment for men to come home to at the end of the day.

Every adult and lots of children do housework. They do not do home making.