The latest fallouts in GC world

[Pluvia]

My terfing energy has been focussed elsewhere in recent months and I haven't been here or on TwiX or social media much. Now I've taken responsibility for tweeting/ comms on behalf of a small but potentially significant LGB group and I discover that there seems to be something going on — another schism — in GC world. Jane Clare Jones's name seems to be coming up a lot. Something seems to have gone on but I can't work out what.

If it was my own account I'd just ignore, but the followers of this account are bringing it up and seem to expect an opinion to be expressed or a side to be taken. Also I'm seeing a lot about 'ultras' and 'lites', which is new to me. Can anyone enlighten me? I need to tread carefully.

You see, I do understand that kind of feminsim ( I'm also someone who studied 'Women's Studies' as part of my degree) and am of a 'certain age', with years around Left wing activism - but I no longer hold to it. I feel I've moved on; transcended it, if you like.

To my mind it now just comes across as any other form of Intersectionalist Identity Politics - with opressed groups and oppressor groups, with 'privilege' and all of that - and I now find it dated, inhibitive, constraining and dogmatic.

And feminism is left wing. Read Andrea Dworkin who explains this more.

utopia - sorry I did not realise your family were farm labourers.

@Shortshriftandlethal so you are no longer a feminist

I earlier suggested that there is nothing inherently 'anti woman' about enjoying or valuing making a home, or about having your hair done, and so on...if that is what you mean by " defending". How can anyone be pro women who considers that any conformity with typical gender expression at all is unfeminist? Some of us enjoy such things and find value in them.

We should all be free to express that which comes naturally to us and gives us pleasure or reward...and that includes stereotypical female gender roles if that is what you choose. Of course, in some societies, women still have no choice and their lives are heavily prescribed and constrained by rigid expectation, and by laws which enforce those expectations.

I'm one of those people who reject the word 'feminist' now for those reasons......because some people prescribe so rigidly what it is supposed to means. If, on the otherhand, 'Feminism' is about centring women and valuing female voices and experiences and finding worth and importance in them, then I am a Feminist.

And who here has defended your interpretation of ‘home making’?

I read Andrea Dworkin a long time ago. She is still on my bookshelf. Her experieneces, though, were very extreme. Though I appreciate that some women do have similarly extreme experiences. Too much Andrea Dworkins, though, can lead you to feel angry and raging all of the time ( it did for me); and that is not healthy.

Fine you are not a feminist.
It is a shame the feminist board is largely dominated by women who either do not understand feminism, or who are not feminists.

I quite enjoy service and find it comes naturally to me. I like to make a pleasing environment, organise things, and provide nice food and comforts for others; for my husband, children, visitors etc.

Though i appreciate service is not for everyone/is not their style at all.

I also like to please myself, and I do, in plenty of other ways. I certainly don't prostrate myself at anyone's feet.

My point really, is that you do not get to decide who is and who isn't 'a feminist' - or dictate its terms. It is a word. You don't own it. It has many inerpretations.

This is also the crux of the issue with JCJ and KJK. Some people have very rigid definitions that follow along ideological lines

But to be honest, I don't actually care if you think I am or not....my worth or value or identity is not tied up in that word. Though I'll fight for my right, and the space, to speak the truth about women, female people, and anything to do with them.

I am a woman, a female human being after all. Feminism is supposed to be about and for all women isn't it? Not just the ones who share the exact same political positions as yourself?

Feminism does not have many interpretations. It is a political theory. Just like sex it has a real meaning, no matter how much you try and claim the word can mean whatever you want it to mean.

So, Candy - you've landed on this board, told us all what's what, what we are (and aren't), who we vote for, and what we believe in. And now you are going to declare whether or not we all meet your definition of feminism.

Great to have your input.

Gail Dines does a good talk about what feminism is. You will be able to find her video on youtube.
She has a male partner and sons, so maybe a bit more acceptable source to you than Andrea Dworkin.

Isn't that why someone originally requested it be split of from the rest of the feminism section - so that the women who had a very certain definition of feminism and who wanted to chat all things feminism in that way ( not just about how gender ideology/trans acticvism negatively impacts upon women and children) - could have a board on which to do that? The Feminism chat forum.

I identify as a feminist. I also like home making. It has fuck all to do with the husband. As long as he’s got peanut butter, he’s happy. I on the other hand, appreciate colour, comfort, potplants…

I honestly make for me. It’s a need within me to have an environment I am comfortable in.

Are you suggesting only men need homes? Do single women happily exist in hovels, with their minds on higher things?

Sorry if I’m harking back to something already covered. I was a bit surprised to read that I’m not a feminist because I hold opinions about sofas.

I do need to go. I have housework to do and need to stop wasting time here.
But feminism does have a clear definition. What happened is that capitalism started to use feminist theory to promote its products with the idea of women empowerment and self esteem. And then so called liberal "feminism" came in where anything a woman wanted to do was "feminist".
Feminism has a clear definition.

I don't need educating on the matter. I've had far more 'education' than you on the matter I imagine. I've actually lectured on Sociology in my time.All writers are both of their time and experience, and we can each learn a little from all of them.....but there is no compulsion to adhere to a fixed dogma for all time.

Time and experience changes you - if you permit it. We all evolve. This is good.

For you, obviously.

What do you make of Mary Harrington's 'Reactionary Feminsim'? Is she allowed to use that word?

Not all schools of feminist thought are left wing - Liberal feminism for a start is not left wing. Marxist feminism is. There are other schools of feminism that incorporate left wing and right wing ideas. In this day and age, it sometimes feels like there’s a type of feminism for every taste.

The entire canon of political theory is people (largely men in the old days) coming up with explanations that, for them, make sense of the world and the society around them. I don’t think I’ve ever felt that any one political theory was absolutely correct in every aspect of its analysis of human society - it’s a bit like how Newtonian physics is a great description of natural laws but it breaks down on the quantum level and so another theory of quantum physics is needed to describe what happens there.

Personally, I tend to see value in lots of different ways of explaining human societies - I even see value in the political theories I largely disagree with too because they might have some information that accurately describes aspects of society but they also help me better frame my own conceptualisation of the world around me. Edmund Burke, for example, was a conservative thinker but he still has some interesting things to say about the way humans are and what makes for a stable society.

I think that’s one of the reasons I like this board so much - it’s people from different backgrounds and different opinions coming together to analyse or discuss society. I find myself exposed to lots of new viewpoints and ways of thinking and I find that valuable in working out how I think and feel about things.

It’s also a bloody good form of consciousness raising for women, which I think is very useful and keeps alive a very useful feminist ‘tradition’ from the second wave days.

I also have to go. We have arranged a family trip to ikea, to choose new kitchen chairs. I’m wondering whether DS1 is supposed to be a woman, in your definition, as he has particular ideas about which chairs we get.
As a good feminist, shall I just choose the cheapest ones regardless of how uncomfortable they are? It’s just, that would be DH’s approach. So is he the feminist?

I was hoping they would be both comfortable and stacking, and ideally look smart. I’m no longer sure where that philosophy fits.

I have my eyelashes tinted, but I can't abide cushions. I like football, but not knitting. I avoid housework. Am I a feminist? Or even a woman?

Not every adult does housework. Lots of adults (mostly male ones) don't do any and try and push it onto others. Lots of interesting insight into this on the relationships board.

There's an interesting drop off in my observation in men doing housework when children arrive (because then the woman is trapped into doing a minimum amount to ensure safety and well-being of children).

Anyway, talking of children, it's clear one of the reasons that many purported feminists suffer Keen derangement syndrome is that KJK was a SAHM and liked it and believes it's a valid, useful choice for a woman who is bright, such as her, to take.

Don't know backtolurk. I still couldn't work out whether or not feminists wore make up.

And I am still trying to work out what the "utopia - sorry I did not realise your family were farm labourers" was to mean. I mean, I come from a similar situation to Utopia by the looks, except I didn't study feminism, part of my study was industrial relations and discrimination.

Maybe I am not allowed to be a feminist either??? But on the other hand, some of these posts are quite good at highlighting the issues under discussion.

You confused me with another poster. You quoted the person who asked if you might be middle class and it wasn’t me.

It’s a fast moving board though, it can be hard to keep track of multiple lines of discussion. I find it useful sometimes on fast moving discussions to quote posts that I’m making a specific answer to, so that way I have the original post in front of me to aid my memory in forming an answer.