The latest fallouts in GC world

[Pluvia]

My terfing energy has been focussed elsewhere in recent months and I haven't been here or on TwiX or social media much. Now I've taken responsibility for tweeting/ comms on behalf of a small but potentially significant LGB group and I discover that there seems to be something going on — another schism — in GC world. Jane Clare Jones's name seems to be coming up a lot. Something seems to have gone on but I can't work out what.

If it was my own account I'd just ignore, but the followers of this account are bringing it up and seem to expect an opinion to be expressed or a side to be taken. Also I'm seeing a lot about 'ultras' and 'lites', which is new to me. Can anyone enlighten me? I need to tread carefully.

@Ereshkigalangcleg

As you seem to be determined to come back to this 'throwaway remark'. Yep I said "feel there is now a bit of back pedalling", and I'm quite happy to stand by that. The comment was "No men belong behind a make up counter, none." To me, and presumably lots of others, that goes beyond just saying "I personally don't want a man to touch my face", which is how it is how it is now being positioned. I consider that back pedalling, you don't. That's fine.

I'm not really sure what you mean by the accusation that I disapprove of "women like KJK". Women like what?

Is KJK back pedalling? I hadn’t seen that. I would be interested to see what she is saying. The posters here are discussing their interpretations and thoughts surrounding her post and JCJs insinuation that we (GC women) are soon to be saying all men in eyeliner are a danger to children.

Not interested enough to reinstall x though! It drains my will to live.

I consider that back pedalling, you don't. That's fine.

I consider that just like JCJ you are making something out of absolutely nothing, in the way that always happens on these threads, and trying to draw women here into it too. You don't. That's fine.

I'm a bit confused by this though.

(Although not her hair - and for me I find the whole groin next to face aspect of a male hairdresser quite invasive).

(not the only pp to say this)

I don't recall ever having a hairdresser's groin near my face at a salon

I was wondering if perhaps English hairdressers sort of stooped as they cut your hair!

There's also the issue that academics have been paid from the public purse and from private fees and government loans poor people take out, all of which are there because everyone paid into the system that they are capitalising off of.

Half of the people at least will be on the right. I say at least because as was previously pointed out, the working class don't often make it to university. It does tend to be people who want to go on to actually make some serious money that go to university.

So not only are the feminists who flick shit at the likes of KJK for talking out of turn paid by capitalists, they are supposed to serve their often capitalist students and yet they espose about how socialist they are and hate anyone who doesn't bow down to the leftist way of thinking.

It is all utter bullshit. University lecturers are benefitting from capitalism just like everyone else. And yet, a woman dares to sell a few tshirts to pay for security and she is hounded for it.

They betray women, the ones who need it, time and time again. Talk about throwing the working class under a bus.

I am not an academic as I keep saying. I am low paid. And many of the women critical of KJK are not academics.
Why are you using academic as an insult anyway? Do you buy into the centuries old prejudice against women being educated? You know the first women at universities in the UK were ridiculed for daring to attend?

You were the one that stated earlier that someone who did Feminist Theory at university couldn't be working class. You may not be an academic but at least read what it is you type before pressing 'post'.

Why does it have to be either/or?

There are many women who do conform to certain gender stereotypes ( well at least some of them): who enjoy dressing up; wearing make-up; making home; baking; having children.....and given that it is females that become pregnant, get the nesting instinct, and have the closest bond with a new-born it would be rather odd if lots of women did not find something edifying in all of the above.

The point about gender roles is really about not being forced to comply, not that they exist. There will always be masculine men and feminine women - because many 'gender' constructions are extrapolations that do have roots in sex - even if not rigidly fixed.

It still does not mean that a 'masculine' woman is male, though, or a 'feminine' man is female. A lot of gay men do enjoy stereoptypical 'girly' things, and a lot of lesbians enjoy more 'masculine' things.

It seems to me that there are some feminists who don't like that KJK has blonde hair and a glamorous presentation or that she makes a big thing about being a wife and mother. They see that as unfeminist, or that she is somehow cos-playing womanhood.

It is absolutely an issue that a very striking looking feminine woman with kids opens her mouth and says unapproved things.

The woman who said she read feminist theory at university dismissed my opinions by saying I was middle class, and those who agreed with KJK were working class. That is simply not true.

That's because she is a career feminist who has carved out a very specific academic niche and she doesn't want it compromised.

She is also obsessed with eye-liner wearing Prince, and nobody can say a word about him......What is that all about?

I find supporters of KJK tend to react very harshly to the slightest criticism of KJK.

What is working class and how does one define it? Lots of people claim working class identities....and I wonder on what it is they base this claim? Their parents' jobs? Their current occupation? Their salary? Their level of education?

One turns someone from working class to middle class? Are there specific criteria?

What about the people who are not fans of anyone in particular, but still feel they have a comment to make, or an observation?

You mean like me? I have referred to as a fan of CJC on this thread. I am not a fan of anyone. Why do you think people here assume I am a fan?

@Shortshriftandlethal anyone can claim to be working class or middle class. Kemi Badenoch claimed to have become working class when she worked at McDonalds for a short while. But just sex, class is a materialist reality. You can pretend to be whatever sex or class you like, but reality is a different story.

Actually I was thinking of myself.......given your slightly incongruent response to my post. It felt as if you were suggesting I was a fan of KJK because I'd commented on JCJ's academic career and her love of Prince.

TBH, I pay little attention to either woman. I'm not on twitter. Though i did attend a Let Women Speak event once.

@Shortshriftandlethal If I thought you were a fan, I would have said that.

I'm asking you...for your definition or usage? Are you defining class purely in material terms ( money/house/ job?)

(Did you used to post under a different user name...but with the same CM initials?)

It just seemed like an odd response - to my response to another poster. You didn't seem to be addressing my points at all.

No I did not post under another name. I have no idea who you are referring to.
I tend to stay away from this board as I believe in feminism, rather than conservative gender critical ideas.
Why do you want to know my definition?

It's a discussion board......I find it helps to further discussion if ideas, beliefs and claims can be unpacked.

@Shortshriftandlethal My comment was in response to the comment above claiming that KJK supporters are working class and those who agree more with CJC are middle class.
That untrue statement is the one that needs to be unpacked. I have seen this idea before. That KJK and those who agree with her are ordinary working class people, and those who disagree are middle class academics who are stuck in their ivory towers divorced from reality.
Why do you think that false characterisation keeps being repeated?