The latest fallouts in GC world

[Pluvia]

My terfing energy has been focussed elsewhere in recent months and I haven't been here or on TwiX or social media much. Now I've taken responsibility for tweeting/ comms on behalf of a small but potentially significant LGB group and I discover that there seems to be something going on — another schism — in GC world. Jane Clare Jones's name seems to be coming up a lot. Something seems to have gone on but I can't work out what.

If it was my own account I'd just ignore, but the followers of this account are bringing it up and seem to expect an opinion to be expressed or a side to be taken. Also I'm seeing a lot about 'ultras' and 'lites', which is new to me. Can anyone enlighten me? I need to tread carefully.

Some people use those types of lazy accusations to shame women who have a different perspective, just as you are doing with this post

Oddly I only seem them trying to shame KJK.

Helen Joyce is entirely up front about being right wing, economically, at least. She doesn't seem to come in for the same sort of bashing.

Right leaning? Against the counter?

Don't lean too far, you might end up across the aisle.

This is true.

Back to the men as makeup artists and hairdresser, for a minute.

Understandably, feminism has worked to get women into career traditionally difficult to get into, car mechanics, law. The flip side of that is men in traditionally women's jobs.

But the reason many career paths have been male or female isnt necessarily misogyny. Women been excluded from the prestige of law isnt the same as men been excluded from been a midwife and performing smears.

If women are happy for strange men touch them when cutting their hair or putting on make up, thats fine. But i dont think they should be shamed for not wanting it. If a woman doesnt want jeff to give her a make over, i dont think there should be any awkwardness about saying no.

And thats the problem i see. Many women draw the line at smears, but havent thought about the social pressure other women feel when their line is different.

Yes. There is also a difference for some women for hair cutting vs touching faces.

The shaming for boundaries in this regard is rather concerning and very dismissive.

There’s a difference between saying “I don’t want Jeff to give me a make over” and “Jeff shouldn’t be allowed to give any woman a make over”. Women should absolutely be entitled to ask for another woman for services they consider intimate. It’s a whole different thing to insist that particular jobs are only for a particular sex in all circumstances.

Im not saying that.

Im highlighting women who say i have no problem with men doing my make up is as helpful as the ones saying i have no problem with men performing a smear test. Its moving what is socially acceptable and making harder for women to say no.

It's funny that out of all the content KJK has posted recently, not wanting a man on a makeup counter has sparked the most response. I think it's useful when she says stuff that lots of women push back against because it helps show the genuine demands of GC women.

---- // disclaimer, I never use makeup so have no opinion on who sells it

I don't have enough information about your class or intellect to make that sort of assumption.

I have a stupid question, is there a membership for KJK and if you join it you anre an ultra? I find all the infighting confusing because IDGAF. Women are not a single group, we’re not all going to agree. So i scroll past a lot of it because it seems like ego and fishing for clicks to me rather than serious work of protecting our rights.

I don't think the problem is women who say "I have no problem with men doing my smear test" though. Surely the problem is being told that the man who has turned up to do your smear test is actually the woman you specified you wanted.

KJK and her make up has come in for quite a lot of attention. As has her house, hair, manicure, husband, and the money she earns. On these boards, at least.

And by attention, I mean criticism. I don't think I've ever heard anyone wang on about Helen Joyce's hair.

All very odd.

I've got two degrees, fucking upstart that I am. Though I do try to remember to tug my forlock for my betters.

We can't all be poor but 'appy m'lud.

On twiX, when something like 'no men on make-up counters' is posted, I always read it as 'no men on make-up counters. Discuss.' That is the nature of twiX.

I thought JCJ's post:
Ultra GC: NO MAKE UP FOR MEN. MAKE UP IS FOR LADIES

was a bit pathetic and not even a reflection of what KJK was saying. Maybe KJK would be perfectly happy with men having their own make-up and their own make-up counters.

We can't all be poor but 'appy m'lud.

Quite 🙄

Like I said, I don't think she's asking for a law to be passed or anything. It's her personal opinion.

Actually I think it can be both. It depends how it is positioned. If someone says ‘ I have no issue with a male hcp doing my smears’ in a way that leaves others feeling they are unreasonable for not wanting someone male do their smears, it is an issue. If the person also indicates that they understand that others do have an issue, and that is fine, then it accepts that others have boundaries.

Whether it is intended or not, I think the way JCJ interpreted KJK’s comment was meant to be denigrating of that boundary. And the boundary has validity when you start discussing it.

The use of the word ‘ultra’ is derogatory. Let’s not forget that.

I'll start by saying I think JCJ's response was a bit pathetic. I find some of her writing interesting, but her tendency to initiate and prolong these 'Twitter spats' incredibly childish.

That said, I do feel there is now a bit of back pedalling on what KJK said. She was very clear. "no men on make up counters". Given that her appeal is apparently her straight talking, no bullshit manner, I do find it weird that there seems to be an attempt to reposition this as "this is just a personal boundary regarding who she, as a woman, wants touching her face". (Although not her hair - and for me I find the whole groin next to face aspect of a male hairdresser quite invasive). She either speaks clearly or she doesn't.

Leaving aside who said it though, where do you draw the line with people not saying they are OK with a man doing X, Y & Z. Many, if not most, women are fine with a male GP for routine appointments. Are they wrong because they make it difficult for, say, religiously conservative women to ask for a woman GP? I'm OK with a male GP asking me to remove my top, for example, to check a muscle injury. Other women may not be. Should I not say that's OK for me? What I want in place are processes for women to be able to specify another woman to carry out some examinations/procedures if they want and for those requests to be respected.

@BackToLurk why is it important to you whether Kellie Jay Keen thinks men shouldn't work on make up counters? She simply said "no men on make up counters" as you say. She didn't say "I want a nationwide campaign to ban men from makeup counters." She didn't say "I want a law passed to prohibit men from working on make up counters". You are overanalysing a throwaway comment almost as much as JCJ.

Agreed, "ultra" is a slur.

It's not particularly 'important' I'm discussing it in the context of the thread, and the subsequent debate that it's started. As @JumpingPumpkin said upthread "it's useful when she says stuff that lots of women push back against because it helps show the genuine demands of GC women." I guess people have the choice to keep coming back to the parts of comments that mention KJK & JCJ, or to move on.

“Should I not say that's OK for me?”

I think the way you have expressed it has context and works well.

I think Kellie Jay Keen sometimes says things very clearly and sometimes she is the total opposite and people have to look very closely to find a likely accurate interpretation. It is partly why people can try to manipulate what she says so much.

@BackToLurk

Why all this laser focus on this throwaway comment though? You've even accused people here of "trying to backpedal". Just for the avoidance of doubt, people are discussing the points raised, they are not "back-pedalling" anything. There is very little to "backpedal". She doesn't like men on make up counters? So what?

No, the only people who are making this comment out to be in any way important are you, JCJ and all the other people who disapprove of women like KJK.