AGP

[niadainud]

Ugh.

I was on the tube the other day sitting next to a "trans-woman". (Inverted commas as there was nothing remotely womanly about him, other than that he was wearing a skirt and knee-high boots.)

He was staring intently at his phone the whole time without typing or scrolling and as I glanced over I happened to notice he was looking at a list including such things as "delaying orgasm" and "improving build-up to orgasm". I ended up feeling like I had been unwillingly involved in his sordid little obsessive fantasy, and I still feel slightly queasy about it several days later.

Then to top it off, a (male, able-bodied) "friend" announced that he didn't see any reason why everyone (i.e. men) shouldn't use women's toilets and disabled toilets. And why don't people make a fuss about trans-men using men's toilets?

I sincerely wish all these men would just fuck off and stop encroaching into women's physical and metaphysical spaces.

I don't know if it's an official change though. We would appreciate calcification tbh. As so many of us feel like we are walking on eggshells about something that is used to abuse women. That is not healthy nor appropriate for a site for women and mothers.

*clarification ffs

My eyes are rubbish at the moment!

The thing that fascinates me the most I think is not that a straight man can want to dress up as a porny idea of a woman and claim it's an "identity" and not driven at all by sexual urges, but that so many people, male and female, can take that at face value and actually believe it. How can they be so stupid and gullible?

I'm a straight bloke and the idea of wanting to wear my wife's underwear and then when she rumbles me, claim no sexual aspect to it is so funny to me, it is completely absurd. It makes me think that men who claim to be "trans allies" aren't gullible at all but just blatant liars. No man could believe that imo.

It's annoying but the topic of AGP existing at all is hugely bannable on here.

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/site_stuff/4239320-Thread-about-Kathleen-Stocks-book-deleted?page=1

YetAnotherBeckyMumsnet · 08/05/2021 15:17

Hello ^^@BernardBlackMissesLangCleg it looks like quite a lot of the posts on the thread were breaking our guidelines. As a general rule, we'll remove posts/threads that generalise about AGP.

This was 2021. I might find something more recent on Site Stuff but the search facility is pants, so takes time. Rather poor explanation from MN sadly. Can we be specific about AGP then?

My bloke said to me that ALL men know exactly why other men might want to be in the women's bathrooms and if they are saying they don't or trying to obscure it, THEY ARE LYING.

He's right.

I was thinking about this recently in relation to 90s comedy, where a lot of material was based around the premise of "men think about sex all the time", thinking of stuff like Seinfeld, Men Behaving Badly, Bottom and stand ups like Victoria Wood.

My pulled-out-of-my-arse theory is that in a post MeToo era, for a lot of lefty men who's number one goal in life is to appear a Good Person to strangers on the internet, the idea that men think about sex all the time was suddenly not a good look, so they started to pretend that it was only rotters and cads who do that, not them, not virtuous "male feminists" like us. And that has ultimately ended up in them having to pretend that, like them, transvestites are all virtuous, because if they say "hang on, a bloke who wants into the ladies' is obviously up to no good", that reflects badly on them because it reveals that they know that all males are a danger to women in one way or another.

I seem to remember that MN deleted threads for generalising about AGP (suggesting that heterosexual men who claimed to think they were women were all, or mostly, AGP), and also those that were specific about AGP (saying that a specific person must be AGP).

Which meant that we couldn't discuss it at all because we could neither generalise nor be specific.

I like your working theory very much.

Its extraction via an orifice seems apt for the thread. Ha! 😂

My bloke said to me that ALL men know exactly why other men might want to be in the women's bathrooms and if they are saying they don't or trying to obscure it, THEY ARE LYING.

That's what my one thinks too, more or less.

It’s an informative book, I read it over the summer and learned a lot from it. He wrote it for the layperson which really helped me in understanding.

@UtopiaPlanitia I have listened to him on you tube and podcasts and got a bit confused in places, so decided to get his book, thanks for that.

Your theory gives the absolute dictionary definition of the guy I'm thinking about.

Well, for the ladies
A.G.P. means something different
The first two letters' the same
but the last is something different
It's the longest, loveliest, lean, I call it the leanest
It's another five letter word rhyming with "cleanness" or "meanness"

With apologies to Naughty by Nature.

I really think that's it, it occurred to me when I was watching Helen Joyce talk about males going into "breastfeeding" groups and everyone just thinking that's ok, arguing that these men's intentions are pure.

I think a lot of liberal lefty men want everybody to think they're the kindest, most amazing people, the tedious social justice lot, and that means they've rationalised themselves into a position where they can't say or even think something that's completely obvious like "men are a danger to women" because then that means them as well.

This board has thread after thread about alleged sightings of what you are describing. Almost as if they are made up to rage bait and stir up transphobia?

Indeed - at times, upsetting women seems tp be the aim.

This Daily Telegraph article 22/01/23 was discussed openly on Mumsnet when it came out:

Britain is becoming sick over the trans debate. Only facts can cure it.

Excerpt:
It is how nobody stops to ask how many such men are moved to act in these ways through their own sexual desire. Autogynephilia, the feeling of sexual arousal some men feel as they pretend to be women, is according to some researchers behind many or even most cases of gender dysphoria among those born as men. It is legitimate to ask whether non-consenting women ought to be participants in such sexual fantasies.

archive
https://archive.is/3mOAw

Of course.

Some men wish to humiliate themselves. But the paraphilia - like most paraphilias - mostly depends on the unwilling participation of others. Either via voyeurism or other paraphiliac activity. So the shock/confusion/upset of others is definitely a part of it.

Edited to add: this was supposed to be a quote grab of the comments on Detrans, the book by Dr Az.

Yep, a great book.

For me, the bits where it lacked depth were:

a) Autistic girls. He's much more atuned to how gender identity impacts males (who identify as female) than females (who identify as male). So while his autism section is good, he doesn't explore any sensory issues that autistic girls are likely to have around breast development, for example. He covers ROGD but misses this key bit about autism in girls.

b) the emerging male libido in adolescence. He's great on autism in males (who identify as female), particularly on the language processing side of things. This also applies to autistic girls, in addition to the sensory issues above. However, he doesn't really cover the impact of being a young boy with an emerging libido combined with autistic cognitive processing. For example, a boy playing an online game where he uses a female avatar might be easily confused (and led towards this confusion) about why he feels turned on by the avatar. Does he fancy "a cartoon" or himself as that cartoon? The blurring of all this is definitely a factor.

@BonfireLady thanks so much for your perspective. I picked up on some of what you say in his various interviews. And thought i ought to read his book. He tells us to bin his origional book as “too polite”

To be fair to him his real life professional experience is in the field of paraphilia’s at the Portland. And it is there that he came across the whole trans thing.

I suspect he has developed theories as a psychiatrist based on his interactions with others with a GC views, beyond what he did, and has as far as i can ascertain quite a lot of behind the scenes dialogue with Genspect, and the like. for eg.

I am at the moment trying to get a better understanding of AGP, other paraphilia conditions, how they interact, overlap and the relationship to that with sex offending. Including vouyerism and sexual exposure, which of course is part of our main complaint vis a vis women only spaces.

Any other book recommendations would be much appreciated

I think it's slightly different for women.

I watched Hidden Figures.

No one wants to be the Kirsten Dunst character - racistly holding back the black women saviours of humanity. We have been cleverly convinced that transphobia is the new racism and bending over backwards to every demand by transgender people is the way to be a good person. If you're uncomfortable with the demands on you or worry about safeguarding, you're an evil bigot.

Just be nice and be a "good person" (to a certain sub-set of men and don't mention women's prisons)

Never been able to understand how those experiences are in any way considered to be related to the lifelong struggle of gender incongruent kids who go through years of desperate clawing hell just to become as boring, safe and invisible as possible.

What experiences are those? Most of FWR don't think they are actually related to gender-confused children either, if you mean the ones mentioned in the OP.

Indeed. They are different things.

(Although I'm not convinced anyone is aspiring to be boring or invisible. Presumably you mean "average, everyday, like everyone else")

Anyway, this screenshot helps make sense of it.