Meet the Other Phone. Child-safe in minutes.

Meet the Other Phone.
Child-safe in minutes.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Could we ban "transvestigating" threads on here?

1000 replies

Christinapple · 09/12/2024 01:00

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5225715-ilona-maher

This one for example. Transvestigating is an informal term given to when people play detective and try to determine if a given person (usually a woman) is transgender or not from how they look e.g. photos.

I've seen it more than a few times on Twitter anytime a woman who is tall or muscular or "masculine looking" appears. Quite often, women are wrongly mistaken for being trans.

As well as being transphobic, IMO this harms all women and reinforces stereotypes of what men/women should look like. And the idea of obsessing over people's appearances like this just doesn't sit well with me.

OP posts:
Thread gallery
27
ArabellaScott · 10/12/2024 20:02

WarmingClothesontheRadiator · 10/12/2024 19:57

women do not all possess a singular homogenous set of qualities

We Absolutely do! We are adult human females. Females being the sex that produces large gametes and have their body structured around the production of large gametes.

I bet you never would have imagined that in 2024 you'd be arguing on the internet with a grown adult that women are not male.

LizzieBowesLyon · 10/12/2024 20:04

ButterflyHatched · 10/12/2024 19:33

No idea about Furries, sorry. I don't think they have anything to do with gender incongruence unless I'm missing something that means this isn't a thinly veiled attempt to associate the two?

They absolutely DO have a parallel with Trans. They’re both populated by people who firmly believe that they are something different to that which they were born as.

In fact, where’s the difference between Trans and Furry? Asking totally seriously. I cannot see how it’s any different at all.

MissScarletInTheBallroom · 10/12/2024 20:04

LizzieBowesLyon · 10/12/2024 20:04

They absolutely DO have a parallel with Trans. They’re both populated by people who firmly believe that they are something different to that which they were born as.

In fact, where’s the difference between Trans and Furry? Asking totally seriously. I cannot see how it’s any different at all.

It's not. Claiming to be female when you are male is no less crazy than claiming to be a different species. Both are equally impossible.

Brefugee · 10/12/2024 20:08

@Garlicwest thank you for sharing your story.

Greyskybluesky · 10/12/2024 20:09

@ButterflyHatched for the love of god, please try and make your point - weak though it is - without using the word "banned".

It's sheer hyperbole. Transpeople are not being "banned" from anything you've mentioned.

Helleofabore · 10/12/2024 20:20

BearOnABlanket · 10/12/2024 19:21

Err - they'll send you to Radiology....

yep!

Every time for me. Obviously, I don't look like a female person, I think that is the conclusion we can draw from this.

FlirtsWithRhinos · 10/12/2024 20:21

@Garlicwest Flowers

Helleofabore · 10/12/2024 20:23

BearOnABlanket · 10/12/2024 19:42

Well, even then they will - all my maternity scans were done in Radiology - because that's where the radiologists are who perform them.

I went into the EPU once, they just used a heart rate monitor, what with them being midwives rather than radiologists.

Yep. Mine too. Obviously the hospitals around here that I have been to go to a different school though to some people's.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 10/12/2024 20:25

This is someone who literally only cares about women's feelings to the degree that they can be leveraged in support of trans identifying men.

There's a lot of it about.

misscockerspaniel · 10/12/2024 20:26

💐@Garlicwest

Helleofabore · 10/12/2024 20:29

Garlicwest · 10/12/2024 19:54

Coming quickly back to this before reading on - it's such an important point.

I was one of taxi driver John Worboys's victims. I found out after seeing a documentary about him and phoning the helpline; I only have fragmentary memories. The officer filled me in on how Worboys worked, though I chose not to know the gritty details.

Worboys drugged and 'assaulted by penetration' over a hundred women. Carrie Symonds was another. Does our impaired awareness of the assaults mean they don't matter? Do you believe that what you don't know doesn't hurt you, and would you therefore say the serial rapist committed no crimes?

Worboys 'adopted a deceptive persona', having gradually developed a plan to offend. Worboys enabled himself to 'create a fantasy which made him feel powerful'.

Interesting parallel.

I am so sorry Garlic. That is absolutely horrific.

FlirtsWithRhinos · 10/12/2024 20:32

ButterflyHatched · 10/12/2024 19:55

Woman still exists as a category. We have terms to qualify specifics about the individual person because women do not all possess a singular homogenous set of qualities. Some women have a history involving transition. Most do not.

You have lost nothing. It's such a strange argument to make that trans women are somehow stealing womanhood or banning anyone from existing.

Nope.

If you get your way Woman exists as a word, but it becomes a self applied label for a group of people with nothing else in common and no connection to the category of people who originally bore that name.

Do you get it? The word "woman" itself doesn't matter, it's the people it labels The people it originally labelled, before confused men with issues about their own sex got hold of it, and who continue to exist as a meaningful group who you are not part of whatever you may do to bastardise our name in law and in discourse.

Because nothing you do today to appropriate our name, our rights and our legal identity going forward will ever change the fact that you, and others like you, Men in the original meaning of the word, were not part of our history, did not suffer the disempowerment that we suffered because of sex, do not suffer the ongoing results of that disempowerment through structural sexism in our established social mores and though unconscious bias and sexist constructions in our personal and cultural relationships.

We, the female of the species, exist and we have a right to our own name, our own history, and our own political voice and our own rights and protections to deal with the repercussions of that history.

ButterflyHatched · 10/12/2024 20:32

Garlicwest · 10/12/2024 19:54

Coming quickly back to this before reading on - it's such an important point.

I was one of taxi driver John Worboys's victims. I found out after seeing a documentary about him and phoning the helpline; I only have fragmentary memories. The officer filled me in on how Worboys worked, though I chose not to know the gritty details.

Worboys drugged and 'assaulted by penetration' over a hundred women. Carrie Symonds was another. Does our impaired awareness of the assaults mean they don't matter? Do you believe that what you don't know doesn't hurt you, and would you therefore say the serial rapist committed no crimes?

Worboys 'adopted a deceptive persona', having gradually developed a plan to offend. Worboys enabled himself to 'create a fantasy which made him feel powerful'.

Interesting parallel.

I'm so sorry; that's horrendous. There is no excuse for that vile predator's actions.

Do you have any idea why we go stealth? I'm really hoping you don't honestly think it's to trick people who modify their behaviour toward us dependent solely on having a protected characteristic of gender dysphoria into having sex with us. That could not be further from the mind of any stealth trans woman I know. We are terrified of most non-trans people. We know full well the enormous harm they routinely do to people like us; our only protection from it is invisibility. We live precarious lives in constant fear of what non-trans people will do to us once they discover us.

I really cannot overstate the dynamics at play here. We hide because we are terrified; because it isn't possible to go through transition without experiencing what non-trans people do to us. We are desperate to escape it.

That escape - that harrowing, fearful flight toward a life where transphobia is only experienced secondhand - comes at the cost of exchanging perceived-male homophobia-flavoured transphobia and transmisogyny for perceived-female misogyny. It comes with a side order of converting back to the former as well upon being outed.

Please don't liken trans woman desperately trying to escape a lifetime of daily abuse to that predator.

FlirtsWithRhinos · 10/12/2024 20:34

@ButterflyHatched - mate. Just don't. Given what you have been saying on other threads about "stealth", just don't.

ButterflyHatched · 10/12/2024 20:35

Garlicwest · 10/12/2024 19:54

Coming quickly back to this before reading on - it's such an important point.

I was one of taxi driver John Worboys's victims. I found out after seeing a documentary about him and phoning the helpline; I only have fragmentary memories. The officer filled me in on how Worboys worked, though I chose not to know the gritty details.

Worboys drugged and 'assaulted by penetration' over a hundred women. Carrie Symonds was another. Does our impaired awareness of the assaults mean they don't matter? Do you believe that what you don't know doesn't hurt you, and would you therefore say the serial rapist committed no crimes?

Worboys 'adopted a deceptive persona', having gradually developed a plan to offend. Worboys enabled himself to 'create a fantasy which made him feel powerful'.

Interesting parallel.

Edit: sorry. Double-posted.

I'm so sorry. This is horrendous.

Helleofabore · 10/12/2024 20:36

FlirtsWithRhinos · 10/12/2024 20:34

@ButterflyHatched - mate. Just don't. Given what you have been saying on other threads about "stealth", just don't.

I agree.

MrsOvertonsWindow · 10/12/2024 20:36

ButterflyHatched · 10/12/2024 20:32

I'm so sorry; that's horrendous. There is no excuse for that vile predator's actions.

Do you have any idea why we go stealth? I'm really hoping you don't honestly think it's to trick people who modify their behaviour toward us dependent solely on having a protected characteristic of gender dysphoria into having sex with us. That could not be further from the mind of any stealth trans woman I know. We are terrified of most non-trans people. We know full well the enormous harm they routinely do to people like us; our only protection from it is invisibility. We live precarious lives in constant fear of what non-trans people will do to us once they discover us.

I really cannot overstate the dynamics at play here. We hide because we are terrified; because it isn't possible to go through transition without experiencing what non-trans people do to us. We are desperate to escape it.

That escape - that harrowing, fearful flight toward a life where transphobia is only experienced secondhand - comes at the cost of exchanging perceived-male homophobia-flavoured transphobia and transmisogyny for perceived-female misogyny. It comes with a side order of converting back to the former as well upon being outed.

Please don't liken trans woman desperately trying to escape a lifetime of daily abuse to that predator.

Hush Butterfly. If you don't understand that trying to overlay your experiences and demands on one of Warboy's victims is grim, take it from a woman. STOP.

Greyskybluesky · 10/12/2024 20:38

You took a woman's trauma and made it all about you.
Wow.

Helleofabore · 10/12/2024 20:38

ButterflyHatched · 10/12/2024 20:32

I'm so sorry; that's horrendous. There is no excuse for that vile predator's actions.

Do you have any idea why we go stealth? I'm really hoping you don't honestly think it's to trick people who modify their behaviour toward us dependent solely on having a protected characteristic of gender dysphoria into having sex with us. That could not be further from the mind of any stealth trans woman I know. We are terrified of most non-trans people. We know full well the enormous harm they routinely do to people like us; our only protection from it is invisibility. We live precarious lives in constant fear of what non-trans people will do to us once they discover us.

I really cannot overstate the dynamics at play here. We hide because we are terrified; because it isn't possible to go through transition without experiencing what non-trans people do to us. We are desperate to escape it.

That escape - that harrowing, fearful flight toward a life where transphobia is only experienced secondhand - comes at the cost of exchanging perceived-male homophobia-flavoured transphobia and transmisogyny for perceived-female misogyny. It comes with a side order of converting back to the former as well upon being outed.

Please don't liken trans woman desperately trying to escape a lifetime of daily abuse to that predator.

That you thought that writing this was in anyway showing compassion is stark.

"I'm so sorry; that's horrendous. There is no excuse for that vile predator's actions.
Do you have any idea why we go stealth? I'm really hoping you don't honestly think it's to trick people who modify their behaviour toward us dependent solely on having a protected characteristic of gender dysphoria into having sex with us. That could not be further from the mind of any stealth trans woman I know. We are terrified of most non-trans people. We know full well the enormous harm they routinely do to people like us; our only protection from it is invisibility. We live precarious lives in constant fear of what non-trans people will do to us once they discover us.
I really cannot overstate the dynamics at play here. We hide because we are terrified; because it isn't possible to go through transition without experiencing what non-trans people do to us. We are desperate to escape it.
That escape - that harrowing, fearful flight toward a life where transphobia is only experienced secondhand - comes at the cost of exchanging perceived-male homophobia-flavoured transphobia and transmisogyny for perceived-female misogyny. It comes with a side order of converting back to the former as well upon being outed.
Please don't liken trans woman desperately trying to escape a lifetime of daily abuse to that predator."

Did you learn nothing from the last thread? Including where you also did a similarly performative post trying to express empathy while centring you in the post?

ArabellaScott · 10/12/2024 20:40

it's to trick people who modify their behaviour toward us dependent solely on having a protected characteristic of gender dysphoria into having sex with us.

Clabony · 10/12/2024 20:40

@Garlicwest I'm so very sorry that you had such a harrowing experience. I'm grateful that you had the courage to post about it here for all to read.

Snowypeaks · 10/12/2024 20:40

@ButterflyHatched
So BH has to centre BH in someone else's trauma.

Withdraw your post.

ArabellaScott · 10/12/2024 20:42

To be clear, again.

When Butterfly talks about 'going stealth' here, in this context, the subject is having sex with people while pretending to be the opposite sex.

This is illegal. 'Sex by Deception' is illegal in the UK.

Catiette · 10/12/2024 20:42

ButterflyHatched · 10/12/2024 19:55

Woman still exists as a category. We have terms to qualify specifics about the individual person because women do not all possess a singular homogenous set of qualities. Some women have a history involving transition. Most do not.

You have lost nothing. It's such a strange argument to make that trans women are somehow stealing womanhood or banning anyone from existing.

OK, so what word do we use to describe the 51% in Afghanistan who live as virtual slaves? That would be those with female bodies. Adult human females. The collective noun for them used to be "women".

Let's think about this. I mean, being able to name oppressed groups matters, right?

You've made it very clear that "woman" is no longer accurate - this would be to suggest that this group's enslavement is the consequence of their self-perception, or way of life. In the context of what they're enduring, that would be unthinkably inappropriate and supremely distressing. And we can't use "cis-women" - their status in society is entirely unrelated to how they "identify". Certainly, "womanhood" is irrelevant here - as I think you may already know from your canny insertion of it to bolster a weak argument above, it refers to the societal and cultural constructs associated with being female, not the female sex itself.

So, what word do we have left for that group? There's an equivalent word for female dogs, female cattle, female foxes... (Huh - note how all my examples are derogatory! There's a pattern in what often happens to words for groups of females, animal or human - negated, reframed, appropriated...)

So. Those people over there in Afghanistan. The.. er... hang on, er... females, I guess? Or not, since toddlers have a brief period of freedom before the horror... So... female humans, specifically? Adult human females? Hm. That sounds pretty degrading in that context, doesn't it?!

"You have lost nothing." Really?!

We've lost the right to name ourselves as a distinct group, Butterfly! We've lost our word. We've been forced to adopt a nominalised adjective of the kind rightly seen as dehumanising in any other comparable context (cf. "blacks", "gays" etc.) Females. You see it more and more in the paper in place of women. It makes me squirm.

So. No word for one of the most oppressed groups in the world, the women of Afghanistan (#bythatImeanfemalebodiednotcisortransitscomplicatednow). No word for the same group who were forbidden a bank account & property to be raped by their husbands within the last 30-50 years ie. in my very lifetime, British women (#bythatImeanfemalebodiednotcisortransitscomplicatednow).

"You have lost nothing." Are you serious?!

I can't think of a clearer, more terrifying, example of oppression than the absolutist removal of the oppressed group's ability to name themselves in clear, unambiguous terms, and the corresponding insistence that this is wholly insignificant and to resist is bigotry of the worst order.

I've experienced fear before - the daily wariness and occasional bolts of terror that are unique to living in a female body, an exhausting, cumulative weight of daily, weekly, monthly verbal and physical reminders of what any man could do to us, any time, if he wanted... But honestly, the realisation that our collective experience of universal historical subjugation and extreme physical vulnerability isn't deemed worthy of a single word enabling us to distinguish it and advocate for change? That's been a whole new kind of fear for me.

If you think I'm exaggerating...

I speak to kids now who are so certain that "woman" relates to self-perception that they don't fully grasp that the oppressed group in Afghanistan the female sex. They certainly can't articulate it - I've watched them struggle. It's painful. I mean, fuck, even Amnesty International couldn't articulate it recently.

This is happening.

What have we lost?

We're genuinely scared that we're losing everything, Butterfly.

Think of ti this way. We may not see or feel the impacts of this every day - but nor did we see or feel them in this way when we didn't have the vote. That didn't stop us needing the vote - a political, societal voice. And your arguments don't stop us needing our words - a political, societal identity.

Snowypeaks · 10/12/2024 20:42

The person who goes stealth, whatever their reasons, is the predator, not the unknowing or unconscious victim.

Please create an account

To comment on this thread you need to create a Mumsnet account.

This thread is not accepting new messages.