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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Q. "How much did the Pride paint job on that train cost?" - A. "We won't tell you because you don't believe that TWAW"

148 replies

Another2Cats · 04/12/2024 19:46

Yes, this actually happened.

It's quite a long story but the TL;DR is just as in the title.

I follow someone on Twitter @ MouseInTheCourt and they tweeted about this earlier today.

The East Coast Main Line is the route that runs from London Kings Cross up to Edinburgh. It used to be run by Virgin Trains but they couldn't make it work so the route was returned to government control and a new, government owned, body called LNER was set up.

(totally irrelevant, they just copied the name of the company that used to own the route from 1923 to 1948 - ironically, that company, one of the "Big Four" was also set up by the government under the Railways Act 1921).

Anyway, last year LNER released a press release saying that they were going to have a train painted specially in "Pride" colours.

Together For a Summer Of Pride: LNER Launches Azuma Train Celebrating Pride

A few months later someone requested information about the process and costs of decorating a train in Pride colours. She also asked about the processes for selecting train designs more generally and about plans for future designs.

Since LNER is owned by the Department for Transport and so is a public body, this was done by way of an FOI (Freedom of Information) request.

LNER said that it did not hold the information requested. The woman then put the case that a significant sum of money had been spent and it was therefore odd that there appeared to be no paper trail explaining how the decision had been made.

LNER then trawled through her social media posts and suddenly declared that she was "vexatious".

Their reason for doing this was that, among other similar complaints, her tweets:

"... indicates a possible intent to challenge or disrupt initiatives related to transgender inclusion and to promote a binary view of sex and gender."

Her position was then given as follows:

16. The complainant accepted that she had a binary view of sex, but she argued that this was a protected belief – as determined by the Employment Appeal Tribunal in the Forstater case. The public authority had therefore, in her view, unlawfully discriminated against her because it had refused to provide information, that she would otherwise have been entitled to receive, due to her beliefs.

17 She was unhappy that the public authority had conducted a trawl of her social media postings before completing its review. She argued that it was unfair for the public authority to restrict her right to access information simply because she had used her social media accounts to promote her own beliefs – beliefs which she is entitled to hold. More generally she considered it unreasonably restrictive for a public authority to grant or withhold information based on its opinion of the requester’s social media postings. Nor was it reasonable for the public authority to expect her to shift her entire system of beliefs in order to access information.

[...]

19 The public authority’s original press release had highlighted its “commitment to diversity, equality and inclusion initiatives for colleagues, customers and communities throughout the year.” There was, she argued, a public interest in understanding why the public authority had chosen this particular cause ahead of other worthy causes, what the decision-making process was and what plans it had to celebrate other causes in future.
.

Not surprisingly, the ICO came down on the side of this woman.

Full judgment here (pdf):

https://www.bailii.org/uk/cases/UKICO/2024/305669.pdf

Together For a Summer Of Pride: LNER Launches Azuma Train Celebrating Pride

London North Eastern Railway (LNER) is proud to reveal a new named and full liveried Azuma train as Pride celebrations get underway across the UK this summer.

https://www.lner.co.uk/news/together-for-a-summer-of-pride-lner-launches-azuma-train-celebrating-pride/

OP posts:
Thread gallery
9
TheywontletmehavethenameIwant · 05/12/2024 15:17

LoobiJee · 05/12/2024 06:54

I’m astonished by this element of the train company’s response.

The public authority drew attention to one tweet the complainant had published prior to making her request and three tweets published after. It stated that these tweets “consistently” focus on issues related to transgender individuals. It stated that the focus on these topic:
^^
“coupled with the use of transphobic language and alignment with anti-trans figures, suggests a potential motive beyond simply seeking information. It indicates a possible intent to challenge or disrupt initiatives related to transgender inclusion and to promote a binary view of sex and gender.
^^
“The language and views expressed in the tweets align with broader societal discourse that seeks to marginalise and invalidate transgender identities. This type of rhetoric can have a significant negative consequences for all transgender individuals contributing to a hostile and discriminatory environment.
^^
Studies have shown that exposure to transphobic language and attitudes can lead to increased anxiety, depression and even suicidal ideation among transgender people. Furthermore it can create a climate of fear and insecurity, potentially impacting their ability to full participate in the workplace and society...engaging with requests that perpetuate harmful stereotypes and contribute to a hostile environment would directly contradict that.”
^^
14. The public authority suggested that the complainant’s tone suggested that continued engagement with her could become “unnecessarily burdensome”, that her motivation was “disrupting or challenging transgender inclusion” and that, whilst her tweets might not currently harass or distress staff, they had the potential to “contribute to harmful discourse and distress”.

It’s a train company.

Its expertise is, or should be, logistics, engineering, avoiding accidents etc, so how come its response includes this lengthy screed which looks like it’s been copied and pasted from some lobby group or undergraduate gender studies essay?

Can you imagine a train company ever producing some lengthy screed on let’s say…..how studies have shown that allowing alcohol on trains on match days contributes to a hostile and discriminatory environment for women, increased likelihood of sexual harassment and assault on females passengers, spikes in intimate partner violence, with higher levels of suicide risk amongst women in violent, abusive and controlling relationships?

Edited

I'm astonished as well, or at least that's one of the many words I could use. Since when has this cyber stalking of people who make FOI request's been standard behaviour in the Public Sector. FOI's request for everyone, but only if you're an 'approved' citizens, or what. This is completely outrageous, perhaps she could take it up with her MP and demand they get an answer from the government about this unacceptable overreach from a nationalised body. 🤯

RethinkingLife · 05/12/2024 15:25

Since when has this cyber stalking of people who make FOI request's been standard behaviour in the Public Sector. FOI's request for everyone, but only if you're an 'approved' citizens, or what.

Irregular verb theory?

We're protecting ourselves, our staff, democracy, and our most vulnerable citizens from vexatious enquiries.

You're being obstructive.

He/she/they are anti-democratic and authoritarian.

If this were an organisation in China, this would be decried as an example of social credit and limitations on citizenship.

lcakethereforeIam · 05/12/2024 15:31

It is two tier-ness. Imposed from above. Perhaps there's a flow chart.

Is the person asking for this foi 'oppressed™️'?

Yes - proceed
No - 🗑

SouthernComfortable · 05/12/2024 15:46

Do we complain to the Minister of Trans-sport?

WarmingClothesontheRadiator · 05/12/2024 15:53

Groan 🙈

ArabellaScott · 05/12/2024 15:57

NTRFT so sorry if the 'anti trains' joke has already been made, but has this all been a terrible misunderstanding?

MrBungle · 05/12/2024 16:15

We can all do a FOI request you know, for free, right now, why don;t we just send them an email and ask?

MarieDeGournay · 05/12/2024 16:33

LNER's response reminded me of the case of the football fan banned by her club because of things she had tweeted - similar cyberstalking and then punishment for having the Wrong Kind of Opinions..
Football fan banned over GC posts after ‘Stasi’ Premier league investigation | Mumsnet

LizzieBowesLyon · 05/12/2024 17:52

TWETMIRF · 05/12/2024 11:55

The only thing that matters in all areas of life is trans. LGB is only good if it serves the T

Well don’t you know that L people are simply male people born with breasts and vaginas who haven’t realised that they need to get on with the transing, and handover their bits to a more deserving hooman male who really wants them? Lesbians are being eradicated, at puberty with all this trans bollocks.

Urguth · 05/12/2024 20:10

Since when has this cyber stalking of people who make FOI request's been standard behaviour in the Public Sector. FOI's request for everyone, but only if you're an 'approved' citizens, or what.

good god. I used to work for a public sector organisation. We barely had time to —fart— sort out the content of one foi before we had to do the next. Someone has waaaay too much time on their hands.

MrsOvertonsWindow · 05/12/2024 20:16

Another2Cats · 04/12/2024 19:46

Yes, this actually happened.

It's quite a long story but the TL;DR is just as in the title.

I follow someone on Twitter @ MouseInTheCourt and they tweeted about this earlier today.

The East Coast Main Line is the route that runs from London Kings Cross up to Edinburgh. It used to be run by Virgin Trains but they couldn't make it work so the route was returned to government control and a new, government owned, body called LNER was set up.

(totally irrelevant, they just copied the name of the company that used to own the route from 1923 to 1948 - ironically, that company, one of the "Big Four" was also set up by the government under the Railways Act 1921).

Anyway, last year LNER released a press release saying that they were going to have a train painted specially in "Pride" colours.

Together For a Summer Of Pride: LNER Launches Azuma Train Celebrating Pride

A few months later someone requested information about the process and costs of decorating a train in Pride colours. She also asked about the processes for selecting train designs more generally and about plans for future designs.

Since LNER is owned by the Department for Transport and so is a public body, this was done by way of an FOI (Freedom of Information) request.

LNER said that it did not hold the information requested. The woman then put the case that a significant sum of money had been spent and it was therefore odd that there appeared to be no paper trail explaining how the decision had been made.

LNER then trawled through her social media posts and suddenly declared that she was "vexatious".

Their reason for doing this was that, among other similar complaints, her tweets:

"... indicates a possible intent to challenge or disrupt initiatives related to transgender inclusion and to promote a binary view of sex and gender."

Her position was then given as follows:

16. The complainant accepted that she had a binary view of sex, but she argued that this was a protected belief – as determined by the Employment Appeal Tribunal in the Forstater case. The public authority had therefore, in her view, unlawfully discriminated against her because it had refused to provide information, that she would otherwise have been entitled to receive, due to her beliefs.

17 She was unhappy that the public authority had conducted a trawl of her social media postings before completing its review. She argued that it was unfair for the public authority to restrict her right to access information simply because she had used her social media accounts to promote her own beliefs – beliefs which she is entitled to hold. More generally she considered it unreasonably restrictive for a public authority to grant or withhold information based on its opinion of the requester’s social media postings. Nor was it reasonable for the public authority to expect her to shift her entire system of beliefs in order to access information.

[...]

19 The public authority’s original press release had highlighted its “commitment to diversity, equality and inclusion initiatives for colleagues, customers and communities throughout the year.” There was, she argued, a public interest in understanding why the public authority had chosen this particular cause ahead of other worthy causes, what the decision-making process was and what plans it had to celebrate other causes in future.
.

Not surprisingly, the ICO came down on the side of this woman.

Full judgment here (pdf):

https://www.bailii.org/uk/cases/UKICO/2024/305669.pdf

Good to see they're getting plenty of publicity - now reported in the Telegraph:

www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2024/12/05/lner-passenger-transphobia-pride-train-paint-job/

CocoapuffPuff · 05/12/2024 20:19

£58k??????

Fuck me.

Virtue signalling comes with a pretty hefty price tag, it seems.

Guess who is paying? Yep, the poor bloody customers.

AlisonDonut · 05/12/2024 20:53

I'm in the front room shouting FIFTY EIGHT FUCKING GRAND right now.

HaveYouActuallyDoneAnyWashingThisWeekMum · 05/12/2024 21:04

They can definitely afford some hand soap in the toilets and maybe even some toilet paper?

AnneElliott · 05/12/2024 21:17

Honestly what is it with companies/ Gov Departments not understanding FOI! It's been around since 2005!

The consideration is purpose blind - it doesn't matter if they're a journo or Mrs Miggins, it's assessed on its merits with reference to the exemptions actually listed in the Act. You can't make up your own!!

The ICO is incredibly hot on this stuff.

AlisonDonut · 05/12/2024 21:20

I am surprised this got sorted out so fast to be honest.

lcakethereforeIam · 05/12/2024 21:23

Archive link for the Telegraph article posted upthread

https://archive.ph/zfWmX

According to the article LNER still haven't answered her FOI. The cost of the paint job was only part of it. I think the Telegraph may have got that information from another source.

TheyDidntBurnWitchesTheyBurntWomen · 05/12/2024 21:51

LizzieBowesLyon · 05/12/2024 11:47

Ohhh it’s all so clear. Diversity and marginalised communities ACTUALLY means men in drag. Here’s the launch.

https://www.railstaff.co.uk/2023/07/12/lgbtq-champions/

The smile on the man in the purple suits face!! So uncomfortable

Another2Cats · 05/12/2024 22:17

AlisonDonut · 05/12/2024 21:20

I am surprised this got sorted out so fast to be honest.

It appears that they still haven't provided any information (other than the cost).

I've made an FOI request myself to see what response they actually made as to the decision making process of choosing LGBTQ+ over any other similarly worthy causes.

OP posts:
HoundsOfSmell · 06/12/2024 00:40

Blimey, time this train company focused on disabled peoples inclusion

MissScarletInTheBallroom · 06/12/2024 07:05

AlisonDonut · 05/12/2024 20:53

I'm in the front room shouting FIFTY EIGHT FUCKING GRAND right now.

For ONE TRAIN.

EdithStourton · 06/12/2024 07:36

HoundsOfSmell · 06/12/2024 00:40

Blimey, time this train company focused on disabled peoples inclusion

You'd hope so, wouldn't you?

I can remember a wheelchair-using friend of mine writing to the train company FORTY bloody years ago, about basic access to second class carriages so he could get to work. There has been some improvement since (level access to the train and wheelchair spaces) but yeah, it costs and it isn't glamorous.

As for that photo upthread of the drag queens, talk about performative woman-face.

themostspecialelfintheworkshop · 06/12/2024 07:38

It's basically misuse of public funds. Would anyone who regularly travels on this line support that use of money? Or would they prefer it be invested in making trains more on time and having loo roll and soap in the toilets as a PP so perceptively noted would be a better use of money.

Gasp0deTheW0nderD0g · 06/12/2024 07:43

Negroany · 04/12/2024 19:53

Apart from anything else, how on earth do train companies have time for this shit? Then trawling social media? Could they maybe lose a few people and reduce the fares?

Idiots.

As someone who has to cough up the small fortune required to travel up and down the West Coast line several times a year, with the East Coast line as my back up in case of problems, I couldn't agree more with this! Well done to that woman. More like this, please. Let's get the grown ups back in charge.

Gasp0deTheW0nderD0g · 06/12/2024 07:49

RethinkingLife · 05/12/2024 15:25

Since when has this cyber stalking of people who make FOI request's been standard behaviour in the Public Sector. FOI's request for everyone, but only if you're an 'approved' citizens, or what.

Irregular verb theory?

We're protecting ourselves, our staff, democracy, and our most vulnerable citizens from vexatious enquiries.

You're being obstructive.

He/she/they are anti-democratic and authoritarian.

If this were an organisation in China, this would be decried as an example of social credit and limitations on citizenship.

Jennifer Lopez Applause GIF by NBC World Of Dance

Excellent.

£58k! To respray one train! Gosh, it's good to know all the real problems of the rail network have been sorted out, isn't it, leaving enough in the budget for #bekind gestures like this. <begins tearing own hair out>

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