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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Q. "How much did the Pride paint job on that train cost?" - A. "We won't tell you because you don't believe that TWAW"

148 replies

Another2Cats · 04/12/2024 19:46

Yes, this actually happened.

It's quite a long story but the TL;DR is just as in the title.

I follow someone on Twitter @ MouseInTheCourt and they tweeted about this earlier today.

The East Coast Main Line is the route that runs from London Kings Cross up to Edinburgh. It used to be run by Virgin Trains but they couldn't make it work so the route was returned to government control and a new, government owned, body called LNER was set up.

(totally irrelevant, they just copied the name of the company that used to own the route from 1923 to 1948 - ironically, that company, one of the "Big Four" was also set up by the government under the Railways Act 1921).

Anyway, last year LNER released a press release saying that they were going to have a train painted specially in "Pride" colours.

Together For a Summer Of Pride: LNER Launches Azuma Train Celebrating Pride

A few months later someone requested information about the process and costs of decorating a train in Pride colours. She also asked about the processes for selecting train designs more generally and about plans for future designs.

Since LNER is owned by the Department for Transport and so is a public body, this was done by way of an FOI (Freedom of Information) request.

LNER said that it did not hold the information requested. The woman then put the case that a significant sum of money had been spent and it was therefore odd that there appeared to be no paper trail explaining how the decision had been made.

LNER then trawled through her social media posts and suddenly declared that she was "vexatious".

Their reason for doing this was that, among other similar complaints, her tweets:

"... indicates a possible intent to challenge or disrupt initiatives related to transgender inclusion and to promote a binary view of sex and gender."

Her position was then given as follows:

16. The complainant accepted that she had a binary view of sex, but she argued that this was a protected belief – as determined by the Employment Appeal Tribunal in the Forstater case. The public authority had therefore, in her view, unlawfully discriminated against her because it had refused to provide information, that she would otherwise have been entitled to receive, due to her beliefs.

17 She was unhappy that the public authority had conducted a trawl of her social media postings before completing its review. She argued that it was unfair for the public authority to restrict her right to access information simply because she had used her social media accounts to promote her own beliefs – beliefs which she is entitled to hold. More generally she considered it unreasonably restrictive for a public authority to grant or withhold information based on its opinion of the requester’s social media postings. Nor was it reasonable for the public authority to expect her to shift her entire system of beliefs in order to access information.

[...]

19 The public authority’s original press release had highlighted its “commitment to diversity, equality and inclusion initiatives for colleagues, customers and communities throughout the year.” There was, she argued, a public interest in understanding why the public authority had chosen this particular cause ahead of other worthy causes, what the decision-making process was and what plans it had to celebrate other causes in future.
.

Not surprisingly, the ICO came down on the side of this woman.

Full judgment here (pdf):

https://www.bailii.org/uk/cases/UKICO/2024/305669.pdf

Together For a Summer Of Pride: LNER Launches Azuma Train Celebrating Pride

London North Eastern Railway (LNER) is proud to reveal a new named and full liveried Azuma train as Pride celebrations get underway across the UK this summer.

https://www.lner.co.uk/news/together-for-a-summer-of-pride-lner-launches-azuma-train-celebrating-pride/

OP posts:
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9
MarieDeGournay · 05/12/2024 11:08

Excuse the derail 🙄but I'm reminded of Days of Yore when locomotives were named after people, not painted in clashing colours.

One of my favourite examples is a loco named 'Sister Dora' in 1895, in recognition of the work of Dorothy Pattison, who gave medical care to railway workers injured in industrial accidents at a time when

O God! that bread should be so dear,
And flesh and blood so cheap!

-a poem written about exploited women workers, I acknowledge, but an injured railway worker had no structured support for him and his family, and the navvies who physically built the railways were seen as practically disposable.

There is at least one loco called 'Sister Dora' still running on heritage railways.

It only cost a small, but always lovingly-polished, nameplate.

Glamourreader · 05/12/2024 11:17

A huge own goal for the train company

CocoapuffPuff · 05/12/2024 11:18

Yep. Nobody stands for hours waiting to see a train painted in garish colours pass over the Glenfinnan Viaduct or Forth Bridge. The Flying Scotsman, on the other hand, causes mayhem every time. Thousands of folk waiting to see it. I appreciate it's a different type of train but goodness me, the desire to be legendary really is taking Pride of place in this bonfire of vanities, isn't it? Pun intended.

Ladyof2024 · 05/12/2024 11:22

An aspect of this I have not yet seen mentioned is...

"Pride" includes lesbians and gay men, whose orientation is based entirely on the notion that biological sex is binary (i.e. there is ONE sex they are attracted to and ONE sex they are not).

How, therefore, can the LNER cite the complainant's belief that biological sex is binary as one that is antagonistic to those included in the "Pride" painted train?

Or has "pride" been redefined without consultation to mean only "transgender"?

MissScarletInTheBallroom · 05/12/2024 11:23

Ladyof2024 · 05/12/2024 11:22

An aspect of this I have not yet seen mentioned is...

"Pride" includes lesbians and gay men, whose orientation is based entirely on the notion that biological sex is binary (i.e. there is ONE sex they are attracted to and ONE sex they are not).

How, therefore, can the LNER cite the complainant's belief that biological sex is binary as one that is antagonistic to those included in the "Pride" painted train?

Or has "pride" been redefined without consultation to mean only "transgender"?

Presumably this is a rhetorical question.

CocoapuffPuff · 05/12/2024 11:25

Ladyof2024 · 05/12/2024 11:22

An aspect of this I have not yet seen mentioned is...

"Pride" includes lesbians and gay men, whose orientation is based entirely on the notion that biological sex is binary (i.e. there is ONE sex they are attracted to and ONE sex they are not).

How, therefore, can the LNER cite the complainant's belief that biological sex is binary as one that is antagonistic to those included in the "Pride" painted train?

Or has "pride" been redefined without consultation to mean only "transgender"?

I believe it's very much a hierarchy and same sex attraction is the "shhhh we don't speak about that" bit now.

LizzieBowesLyon · 05/12/2024 11:42

Astounding. And highly likely that one single fool in the comms/marketing department went rogue here, muttering “filthy terf” and then no one else had the minerals to reign them (him, I’ll wager) back in.

I bet they keep their job.

puffyisgood · 05/12/2024 11:43

you can see from the picture that it's the full on not-rainbow many coloured pride flag. 9 times out of 10 its use rather the rainbow is deliberate & signifies a disproportionate slash exclusive focus on trans rather than gay rights.

Supporterofwomensrights · 05/12/2024 11:48

@LizzieBowesLyon just replying to your 'him, I'll wager' comment. I believe that surveys, etc, have shown that at population level men are less likely to believe in gender ideology than women. There are plenty of handmaidens in this. In my view, the discrepancy can be largely explained by the fact that the 'be kind' messaging has more of an impact on women because of socialisation than it does on men.

Sometimes, when I'm furious with the men who refuse to respect women's spaces (and freedom of thought and speech), I remind myself that men as a whole are more GC than women are.

Apologies, I can't link to any recent surveys to back this up but it's just what I've read over the years when they ask about this kind of thing.

*Edit: typo

TWETMIRF · 05/12/2024 11:55

Ladyof2024 · 05/12/2024 11:22

An aspect of this I have not yet seen mentioned is...

"Pride" includes lesbians and gay men, whose orientation is based entirely on the notion that biological sex is binary (i.e. there is ONE sex they are attracted to and ONE sex they are not).

How, therefore, can the LNER cite the complainant's belief that biological sex is binary as one that is antagonistic to those included in the "Pride" painted train?

Or has "pride" been redefined without consultation to mean only "transgender"?

The only thing that matters in all areas of life is trans. LGB is only good if it serves the T

WarmingClothesontheRadiator · 05/12/2024 12:12

Ladyof2024 · 05/12/2024 11:22

An aspect of this I have not yet seen mentioned is...

"Pride" includes lesbians and gay men, whose orientation is based entirely on the notion that biological sex is binary (i.e. there is ONE sex they are attracted to and ONE sex they are not).

How, therefore, can the LNER cite the complainant's belief that biological sex is binary as one that is antagonistic to those included in the "Pride" painted train?

Or has "pride" been redefined without consultation to mean only "transgender"?

How transphobic of you. Gay and Lesbians are same gender attracted obviously. Don’t forget lesbians only dating bodies with vaginas is akin to sexual racism.

MarieDeGournay · 05/12/2024 12:17

Were there any rainbow-liveried trains when lesbians and gays were campaigning for basic human rights? I think not.
It's not just train companies - it's amazing how many brave rainbow flag-wavers appeared after the tide of the battle had already turned.

In contrast, the 'progress' flags - which represent groups who appear to already have all the same basic human rights as anybody else - are everywhere, because it's not edgy, it's not dangerous, it's not taking risks to support an oppressed group.
If it was, progress flag-liveried trains would be as rare as rainbow flags trains in the 1970s and 80s.

LGB✂TQ!

lcakethereforeIam · 05/12/2024 12:21

Yes, putting a suffragette flag on a train, calling an engine The Terf, tweeting 'Adult Human Female', that would be brave. What they're doing with this is looking to see which way the mob is going then running to the front and shouting 'follow me!'.

WomensSports · 05/12/2024 12:26

So does the ICO ruling mean we can expect to be able to find out the cost of these sort of initiatives more generally such as those fucking stupid pedestrian crossings, the LGBT carpet* at the entrance to my local hospital, and so on?

*Don't ask me how a carpet can identify as anything; it beats me.

LizzieBowesLyon · 05/12/2024 12:29

Supporterofwomensrights · 05/12/2024 11:48

@LizzieBowesLyon just replying to your 'him, I'll wager' comment. I believe that surveys, etc, have shown that at population level men are less likely to believe in gender ideology than women. There are plenty of handmaidens in this. In my view, the discrepancy can be largely explained by the fact that the 'be kind' messaging has more of an impact on women because of socialisation than it does on men.

Sometimes, when I'm furious with the men who refuse to respect women's spaces (and freedom of thought and speech), I remind myself that men as a whole are more GC than women are.

Apologies, I can't link to any recent surveys to back this up but it's just what I've read over the years when they ask about this kind of thing.

*Edit: typo

Edited

You may well be right. But THE most vociferous proponents of non GC nonsense are men.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 05/12/2024 12:39

Yes, putting a suffragette flag on a train, calling an engine The Terf, tweeting 'Adult Human Female', that would be brave.

Can you imagine the meltdowns!

Tallisker · 05/12/2024 12:45

I would so ride that train! The seat covers could be green and violet with highlights of white (white seats and the public are a not-recommended combination)

Let's lobby LNER to make good 😊

Tallisker · 05/12/2024 12:48

Where's Boiled? Can you do a fabby Terf Azuma train please?

Polyp0 · 05/12/2024 12:49

Another2Cats · 05/12/2024 10:22

I've put in an FOI request myself asking for a copy of their response to this woman. I'll update this if and when I get anything from them.

Excellent

lifeturnsonadime · 05/12/2024 12:51

This thread and the ICO judgement have made my day : ) , thanks for sharing @Another2Cats

lcakethereforeIam · 05/12/2024 13:07

WomensSports · 05/12/2024 12:26

So does the ICO ruling mean we can expect to be able to find out the cost of these sort of initiatives more generally such as those fucking stupid pedestrian crossings, the LGBT carpet* at the entrance to my local hospital, and so on?

*Don't ask me how a carpet can identify as anything; it beats me.

Encouraging people to wipe their feet on the flag!!! <clutches pearls>

MissScarletInTheBallroom · 05/12/2024 13:09

LizzieBowesLyon · 05/12/2024 11:47

Ohhh it’s all so clear. Diversity and marginalised communities ACTUALLY means men in drag. Here’s the launch.

https://www.railstaff.co.uk/2023/07/12/lgbtq-champions/

I do not see any representation of my gay colleague (sitting opposite me right now) in this picture.

Or any of the other gay people I know, for that matter.

katmarie · 05/12/2024 13:59

I am enjoying the ICO judgement, this line is a particular favourite:

a public authority cannot remove a person’s right to seek recorded information, simply because it does not like some of the opinions they may publish online

RubyTrees · 05/12/2024 14:21

The ICO ruling was brilliant - reading it really made my day and gave me hope that I’ll live long enough to see sanity returning to this world.

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