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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

TERFs are not the problem

497 replies

niadainud · 30/11/2024 21:20

AIBU to think that transwomen's beef should not be with so-called TERFs, but with men who rape women or who have sexual proclivities such as autogynaephilia?

It is not (imo) transphobic to want women-only spaces for a number of reasons, but if (some) men weren't predatory in one way or another then women would have nothing to worry about.

I realise this is a highly utopian way of looking at it, but it riles me enormously that it has somehow become socially unacceptable not to pretend a man in a wig and a dress is actually female. I was introduced to someone's "niece" recently and they had facial hair. It's just ridiculous.

I also think that "real" transwomen (i.e. those who have undergone surgery etc.) make things more difficult for themselves by adopting this very black-and-white stance. People like Blaire White are realists and seem to speak some sense about the issue but they're a tiny minority.

OP posts:
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5
Helleofabore · 04/12/2024 22:03

teawamutu · 04/12/2024 22:02

Excellent. That'll save time and trouble.

Silent watching hordes: don't rape people. It's not nice.

Agreed.

"Silent watching hordes: don't rape people."

ButterflyHatched · 04/12/2024 22:03

teawamutu · 04/12/2024 22:02

Excellent. That'll save time and trouble.

Silent watching hordes: don't rape people. It's not nice.

I could not agree more. Please don't rape people!

Waitwhat23 · 04/12/2024 22:03

Genuinely, what a rude response to Catiette's considered and thoughtful posts.

And yes, we know the misogynistic monitors are watching. They despise the fact that women can, and will, talk.

GailBlancheViola · 04/12/2024 22:04

Those quiet parts can never be taken back. They can never be hidden again. It has been a very shocking and distressing thread in more than one way.

It has and the other threads that have been posted on by Butterfly, there is now no denying what GI is and what the intended imposition of it entails.

teawamutu · 04/12/2024 22:05

ButterflyHatched · 04/12/2024 22:03

I could not agree more. Please don't rape people!

I assume that's the advice you'll be giving to your totally real counselling clients from here on in.

Don't get sex by lying, it's rape. Don't rape people, it's not nice.

Glad we got there in the end.

Helleofabore · 04/12/2024 22:07

"I can assure you that this forum is being watched very closely by a lot of people right now. The responses here have been genuinely horrifying, far beyond what I might have feared."

This is pure intimidation after all the posts over the last few days.

And the fact that the responses are what these 'watchers' will think have been horrifying? That people reading this thread will think that women pointing out the glaring horror of this scenario and seeking clarification only to be met with such derision and scorn, and that those reading will agree with this particular poster behaving this way says a whole lot about them.

Helleofabore · 04/12/2024 22:08

Waitwhat23 · 04/12/2024 22:03

Genuinely, what a rude response to Catiette's considered and thoughtful posts.

And yes, we know the misogynistic monitors are watching. They despise the fact that women can, and will, talk.

Edited

Honestly, that response has been par for the course for the past few days over two threads at least.

lifeturnsonadime · 04/12/2024 22:13

I'm sure plenty of 'watcher's' are getting off on the posts on this thread.

Plenty of males love the sexual intimidation of women.

Power and control is what this is ALL about.

Catiette · 04/12/2024 22:29

ButterflyHatched · 04/12/2024 21:52

I don't advise breaking the law. I never said I did. I can only advise on ways to remain as safe as possible if someone is already committed to a course of action.

Please refrain from malicious misinterpretation. The number of posts in this thread that have tried to hammer what I wrote into some bizarre and twisted false version of what is clearly not their intended meaning is really quite disturbing. I'd expect this from Musk's army of twatter trolls or Fox news, but not on a feminist board that holds itself to any measure of integrity.

You've made what initially seemed to be a good faith response; thankyou for doing so. Don't spoil it with this nonsense, please.

Your original words: "we advise younger trans adults intending to go stealth to avoid" behaving in a way we feel could put them at risk while doing this (supremely risky thing!) My words: "advise... to break the law". So, yes, you're quite right that I could have worded that better - apologies. I'd prefer the phrase "implicitly condoning"* *now.

But I do still find this in itself concerning. If we take another law - theft - as an analogy, I honestly can't imagine a counsellor admitting to regularly advising that, if a young person is "intending to engage in theft, they should avoid" doing whatever in order to whatever, without any attempt to highlight the issues with the theft itself. That's why I suggest ethical discussion re: consent as an infinitely preferable alternative.

Re: the accusation of "malicious interpretation", please just think about the likelihood - and irony! - of this. I'm the exact same person who posted empathetically a short while earlier - I've not suddenly become malicious or cynical within a very few posts. To assume malicious intent in this context is a surprising and upsetting assumption in itself. My intention remains to be honest and fair-minded. I have serious history for being - probably obsessively & irritatingly - "good faith" (ref. some very long earlier threads, I think under this username?)

None of that precludes strong feelings where safeguarding women and children is concerned.

I'm trying to start from the assumption that your own feelings are very strong indeed for potentially quite distressing reasons. But so are those of all other posters on this thread. We have reams upon reams of evidence of genuinely malicious intent - just Google "Terf Is A Slur". If malice is sheer, unadulterated nastiness for the unpleasantly vicarious sake of it, I've seen oceans of this on the TRA side, and very little, if any, honestly, from "ours".

What I do see on ours is justifiable anger and fear at this threat to our rights and humanity, and deep, deep (and, frankly, pretty rational in the context) cynicism. This must be distressing to read, but your advice is sound: try not to assume malice, but to empathise...

...But also to recognise that the empathy well runs very dry indeed after a certain point. We feel - as you appear to - as if we're fighting for our very existence. Less than a century ago, we couldn't vote. A few decades ago, we belonged to our husbands in the bedroom, slave-like (marital rape - first illegal in '92 or so). Bank accounts and property of our own are fairly recent. In Afghanistan, the people we've lost the language to describe - that single word that we're now bigoted to claim for ourselves, "women" (not cis - that doesn't work here, which leaves us no language with which to describe one of the most oppressed demographics on earth) - can't even speak in public. Meanwhile, over here, a sense of physical safety in public spaces or an enclosed room with a strange man remains a distant, unimaginable dream, and the degree to which this impedes our freedom of movement, is dependent on the whims of predominantly male law-makers. All because of the physical difference you seek to deny.

So it's not about malice. It's really, really not. I hope you can at least make that step - while I'll try to take away, for my part (again, fighting hard against my own learnt wariness and horror at much of what you argue, to give the benefit of the doubt) - the overwhelming challenges of finding a partner in your circumstances, and strength of emotion this clearly catalyses.

JanesLittleGirl · 04/12/2024 22:29

ButterflyHatched · 04/12/2024 19:43

That sounds like something that would be incredibly fucking stupid and irresponsible on the part of the trans person involved in this scenario, not to mention inevitably leading to a deeply uncomfortable situation.

Oh that's okay then (you fucking what!).

Isn't this exactly what you advocate? Our protagonist, the transman, has found somebody willing to have sex with the stealth presentation and proceeds to have sex while maintaining the stealth presentation. No harm, no foul.

How does this suddenly become incredibly fucking stupid and irresponsible in your guidance? Unless you have never considered how transmen are supposed to navigate your etiquette.

I would love to see the "Butters Guide to Ethical Stealth Sex".

JanesLittleGirl · 04/12/2024 22:44

Datun · 04/12/2024 20:53

For what it's worth, for anyone who is deeply upset, I personally don't think butters has any influence over children or young people in any 'mentoring' capacity.

If just one young person is being influenced by Butters then that is one too many.

Catiette · 04/12/2024 22:52

Yeah, well, any watchers are sad gits if so. And anyway, if the appeal's power, and what power do they have in this convo? Satisfying, measured debate, punchy rhetoric, all fairly effective as a way of sharing our concerns. And strong feelings and concern for protecting the vulnerable - including trans-identifying young people - powering this. Take muscles out of the equation and the GC perspective is pretty hard to counter.

I can see how it could be scary for a certain type.

Yoonimum · 04/12/2024 22:54

No one can change sex. Women deserve single sex spaces, services and sports. Believing you are born in the wrong body is a delusion and no man can 'live as a woman'. Whether you are a creepy AGP, have internalised homophobia or have fallen prey to an ideology because of autism, trauma or whatever, that does not make you entitled to claim something of which you can never have an understanding. I would not be overtly hostile to any man because of his presentation but I have zero tolerance of our language and rights being eroded in the name of inclusivity. My absence of hostility may be tolerance but it could be fear and self preservation so fck #bekind.

ButterflyHatched · 04/12/2024 23:27

Catiette · 04/12/2024 22:29

Your original words: "we advise younger trans adults intending to go stealth to avoid" behaving in a way we feel could put them at risk while doing this (supremely risky thing!) My words: "advise... to break the law". So, yes, you're quite right that I could have worded that better - apologies. I'd prefer the phrase "implicitly condoning"* *now.

But I do still find this in itself concerning. If we take another law - theft - as an analogy, I honestly can't imagine a counsellor admitting to regularly advising that, if a young person is "intending to engage in theft, they should avoid" doing whatever in order to whatever, without any attempt to highlight the issues with the theft itself. That's why I suggest ethical discussion re: consent as an infinitely preferable alternative.

Re: the accusation of "malicious interpretation", please just think about the likelihood - and irony! - of this. I'm the exact same person who posted empathetically a short while earlier - I've not suddenly become malicious or cynical within a very few posts. To assume malicious intent in this context is a surprising and upsetting assumption in itself. My intention remains to be honest and fair-minded. I have serious history for being - probably obsessively & irritatingly - "good faith" (ref. some very long earlier threads, I think under this username?)

None of that precludes strong feelings where safeguarding women and children is concerned.

I'm trying to start from the assumption that your own feelings are very strong indeed for potentially quite distressing reasons. But so are those of all other posters on this thread. We have reams upon reams of evidence of genuinely malicious intent - just Google "Terf Is A Slur". If malice is sheer, unadulterated nastiness for the unpleasantly vicarious sake of it, I've seen oceans of this on the TRA side, and very little, if any, honestly, from "ours".

What I do see on ours is justifiable anger and fear at this threat to our rights and humanity, and deep, deep (and, frankly, pretty rational in the context) cynicism. This must be distressing to read, but your advice is sound: try not to assume malice, but to empathise...

...But also to recognise that the empathy well runs very dry indeed after a certain point. We feel - as you appear to - as if we're fighting for our very existence. Less than a century ago, we couldn't vote. A few decades ago, we belonged to our husbands in the bedroom, slave-like (marital rape - first illegal in '92 or so). Bank accounts and property of our own are fairly recent. In Afghanistan, the people we've lost the language to describe - that single word that we're now bigoted to claim for ourselves, "women" (not cis - that doesn't work here, which leaves us no language with which to describe one of the most oppressed demographics on earth) - can't even speak in public. Meanwhile, over here, a sense of physical safety in public spaces or an enclosed room with a strange man remains a distant, unimaginable dream, and the degree to which this impedes our freedom of movement, is dependent on the whims of predominantly male law-makers. All because of the physical difference you seek to deny.

So it's not about malice. It's really, really not. I hope you can at least make that step - while I'll try to take away, for my part (again, fighting hard against my own learnt wariness and horror at much of what you argue, to give the benefit of the doubt) - the overwhelming challenges of finding a partner in your circumstances, and strength of emotion this clearly catalyses.

Edited

Thankyou so much. I think you might be the first poster on this thread to have bothered to meaningfully try and interpret my posts in good faith. It is hugely appreciated and I understand that the well of patience is not exactly plentiful when it comes to this kind of discourse to begin with. Honestly, it means a lot.

I feel like I've been serving as a punching bag for the last day - there has been a very palpable sense of, as one of my friends just described it, 'going full 11 year old mean girl'. Definitely not an unfamiliar feeling.

I hope it's served at least some good; I feel like we have made some actual progress, however harrowing the road has been, toward dispelling some of the more perplexing myths about trans people - especially the 'we can always tell' myth that I usually see wielded as a thought-terminating sledgehammer.

Fucking miserable that the price is a thread full of...this...but I'd really like to discuss further with someone who seems to be actually listening - just without the dogpiling.

Thankyou.

wincarwoo · 04/12/2024 23:31

BH perhaps you should start your own thread. Then your refusal to respond to sensible questions wouldn't be an issue.

Helleofabore · 04/12/2024 23:35

I feel like I've been serving as a punching bag for the last day

I suggest you go back and read your own posts.

popeydokey · 04/12/2024 23:37

Just out of interest, has anyone got any idea what is referred to here as "dispelling the myth that we can always tell"? Is BH saying that describing their own appearance as female has done this? Confused

Ereshkigalangcleg · 04/12/2024 23:45

Details about your body that your partner should probably know for safety or just basic functionality purposes, for example, are something I would advise disclosing if nothing else because you are both more likely to have a bad time if you can't clearly communicate.

Do you mean having a penis, that type of thing?

Helleofabore · 04/12/2024 23:46

popeydokey · 04/12/2024 23:37

Just out of interest, has anyone got any idea what is referred to here as "dispelling the myth that we can always tell"? Is BH saying that describing their own appearance as female has done this? Confused

This comment is, I assume, a remark about how our comments that we are likely to be able to tell as female people, who is male.

It is fucking offensive for a number of reasons.

Firstly, this shows exactly how little regard this poster has for anyone who cannot correctly sex someone through interaction.

Secondly, many of us have said in the past that female people have a high likelihood of correctly sexing male people. So, it is also a mischaracterisation of what has been said. Which is another dishonest claim.

Catiette · 04/12/2024 23:47

ButterflyHatched · 04/12/2024 23:27

Thankyou so much. I think you might be the first poster on this thread to have bothered to meaningfully try and interpret my posts in good faith. It is hugely appreciated and I understand that the well of patience is not exactly plentiful when it comes to this kind of discourse to begin with. Honestly, it means a lot.

I feel like I've been serving as a punching bag for the last day - there has been a very palpable sense of, as one of my friends just described it, 'going full 11 year old mean girl'. Definitely not an unfamiliar feeling.

I hope it's served at least some good; I feel like we have made some actual progress, however harrowing the road has been, toward dispelling some of the more perplexing myths about trans people - especially the 'we can always tell' myth that I usually see wielded as a thought-terminating sledgehammer.

Fucking miserable that the price is a thread full of...this...but I'd really like to discuss further with someone who seems to be actually listening - just without the dogpiling.

Thankyou.

I'm glad to hear that. I'm staying up stupidly late with the day from hell tomorrow to follow (doh), so am likely to be AWOL for quite a while now, by which time you'll all probably be up to page 40. However, there's really a lot of evidence of good faith engagement elsewhere in the thread. I just clicked on a page at random as a kind of experiment and saw firm but reasonable explanations of the GC perspective, some brusque expressions of genuine shock - fair enough - and a fair few questions genuinely begging an answer. Perhaps you could flick back through and find and consider some of these if you feel comfortable continuing to engage.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 04/12/2024 23:55

Oh don't worry, I can assure you that this forum is being watched very closely by a lot of people right now.

It always has been 🤷‍♀️ so what's new? There's a reason we refer to "the monitors".

Datun · 05/12/2024 00:07

Oh don't worry, I can assure you that this forum is being watched very closely by a lot of people right now.

Oh pleeese let it be the daily mail

Datun · 05/12/2024 00:09

popeydokey · 04/12/2024 23:37

Just out of interest, has anyone got any idea what is referred to here as "dispelling the myth that we can always tell"? Is BH saying that describing their own appearance as female has done this? Confused

I believe it means that if women here are upset about men going stealth, it means we can't always tell that they're men.

Butters thinks it's a gotcha.

wincarwoo · 05/12/2024 00:10

Oh don't worry, I can assure you that this forum is being watched very closely by a lot of people right now.

Is this a threat? Are we meant to be afraid? Is this your Gregg Wallace moment?

Ereshkigalangcleg · 05/12/2024 00:13

Apparently this mysterious offsite cabal think we are 11 year old mean girls, and presumably also think sexual assault by deception is no biggie.

Swipe left for the next trending thread