For Women Scotland in the Supreme Court: LESBIANS

[GCinHE]

Well I am hacked off.

SG was asked about the impact of Transwomen (TWs) on lesbian associations. After much prevarication, and an extended lunch break, the best they could offer was (wait for it, you'll laugh):

Lesbian associations of more than 25 people must accept TWs who hold GRCs if they say they are lesbians.

But lesbian associations can't ask to see GRCs.

TWs who do not hold GRCs but identify as lesbians are deemed heterosexual males under current UK Law (as it should be imo).

But lesbian associations can't ask to see GRCs.

So the judges asked the SG, what are lesbian associations supposed to do if we/they can't ask whether or not an applicant holds a GRC and thereby to determine if the applicant is legally female (a section 9 woman) or instead legally a heterosexual male?

The SG suggested we can't ask for GRCs (because menz feelings will be hurt/indirect discrimination) but we CAN ask to see birth certificates which will say Female for both natal females who do not have GRCs stating their legal sex is male, and will say Female for natal males who have legal (Section 9) sex of female.

In pragmatic terms, we will therefore have to ask all applicants to see their birth certificates so that membership policies do not indirectly discriminate against natal males. Never mind that not everybody has a birth certificate to hand.

Here's the laughable bit:

To legitimately keep TWs out of lesbian associations, the SG proposes that if the lesbian reconstituted as both a lesbian association and an association that is for lesbians holding the protected characteristic of a philosophical belief in gender critical belief I.e. that sex is immutable, then we could theoretically keep TWs with GRCs out.

What the SG did not explain is why lesbians would want any GRC-holding man 'lesbians' in our associations; why the Protected Characteristic of Philosophical Belief is now required to prop up the Protected Characteristic of Sexual Orientation (apparently some PCs under the EqA now have greater status than other PCs); and what we should do if a TW with a GRC says they are a lesbian and that they also hold a Philosophical Belief that sex is real and immutable. Which smh of course they will say that* because they will have a legal sex as female and why wouldn't they just say that?

How will lesbians be able to counter that? Say 'oh we don't believe you', or 'TWs can't legally hold a belief that sex is immutable'??

The Scottish Government has a lot to answer for and their barristers neither understood what they were arguing for, nor were able to logically articulate it, but they were nonetheless quite au fait with throwing lesbians under the bus.

This appeal had better succeed otherwise both the GRA and the EqA will be completely unworkable, and meanwhile lesbian lives and women's single-sex spaces will be over-run with autogynephiles, pornsick incels, male supremacists, mentally ill males, garden variety sexual predators, misogynists all with the power to define what lesbians are, unlike actual lesbians.

I am so aggravated.

They also explained it was all fine because although lesbians have to admit 'lesbian' males who have a GRC on equal terms to female lesbians, they don't have to be attracted to them.

Insanity

I hate the Scottish Government

Nuts absolutely nuts.

Can we use Homosexual rather than Lesbian, homos meaning same, how the heck can anyone born male be same as anyone born female - they aren't the same!

Glad you created this post OP Lesbians are really the final frontier of the gender war, and that is what is going to stop all this nonsense.

The barrister for the SG could barely hold her argument together, in her view as long as there were less than 25 lesbians in a group there is no problem.

After that if there are 26 plus of lesbians in a group your best option is to generate a document to sign saying you are a true GC believer, i dunno how that would work in say a night club

If a natal male signs said document then you can just, well ignore them.

Which would be well easy since the only reason the lesbi man is there in the first place is not to be ignored.

Maybe i am totally naive but i struggle to believe that the eminent judges are likely to run with the idea that a natal man with or without a penis is a lesbian.

You could see all the body language play out especially the barrister arguing that men with a GRC are lesbians.

She rubbed her nose profusely which indicates higher heart rate and a person suffering anxiety with what they are saying.

The judges could barely hold a straight face.

I will admit to looking incredulously at the screen when the KC was saying this. If this (which is just one instance) doesn’t show Westminster what a mess the acts are and how unworkable they have become, then I don’t know what will.

Well I can think immediately of one Scottish association of lesbians that would immediately fall foul of this. Bloody shame as it was a really.nice way of meet some of the elders in our community and I heard some really moving stories of the difficulties they faced when homophobia and misogyny was rampant. Now they just have a different costume on but are playing the same game. No safe spaces for elder lesbians in Scotland apparently according to SG.

Brilliantly summarised, @GCinHE

Oh but here is the kicker. A lesbian society with the added flavour of gender critical could not legally exclude a man with a GRC who also professed to be gender critical. Blair white would likely get a pass

Not wanting to go off topic, but wasn't there some mention of females with a GRC as males, not being subject to abortion laws?

The other major elephant in the room is how do we enact voyeurism laws if we have to accept males in our spaces?

Not wanting to go off topic, but wasn't there some mention of females with a GRC as males, not being subject to abortion laws?

Yes. Anything to do with pregnancy in law is female only. So also maternity leave.

I'm one of the organisers (there are several of us) who run lesbian events in my area. We've decided to ask any man who applies to join the group, or turns up at any event, for his GRC. If he wants to sue us for asking for it it'll be a useful way of highlighting the ridiculousness of the situation. If by some remote chance he offers us a piece of paper which says it's a GRC we'll say that there is no way of ascertaining whether it's genuine or something they've bought online and we'll still refuse access while we go away and double check for safeguarding purposes. There was a time when we were scared of the consequences but we're now in fighting mode.

The whole thing is complete nonsense. Let’s hope the judges try to make a judgement that exposes the misogyny for what it is.

@Pluvia brava that's brilliant.

Well done for managing to get your head around all the implications of this, GCinHE, and for being able to express them coherently in your post.

My brain finds it difficult to follow the all byways of 'logic'- what if he has a GRC AND believes in the immutability of human sex, because he was born female, just, oops, in the wrong body, so now he is living in his true sexual identity, not the one he was assigned at birth..?
It's upsetting how easily that illogical guff trips off the tongue, we've been subjected to it for so long😠

I feel sorry for younger lesbians starting out in life - the ones who have managed to escape being told they are actually boys - because they really don't have a clue who is in their social circle, who they are chatting up/being chatted up by, how to navigate this unclear environment..

short of setting up a formal interview in which you ask
'Are you now or have you ever been a man?' and 'Do you swear allegiance to the Articles of the Gender Critical Faith?'

It's so corrosive.

What happened to the human right of freedom of association, are only heterosexual people allowed that now?

I know. It's so patronising.

I slept on this and awoke musing on the subject. From the perspective of being in female same sex provision for many years.

We can almost always determine a persons natal sex by looking at them.

i wondered if it would be lawful to ask a potential applicant for services if they are male bodied?

Unfortunately, they are sliming their way into lesbian spaces, which are allowing it. So the elephant in the room here is not just that the Scottish Government (and NZ, Australia and Tranada...) would quite like to disappear lesbians altogether, also handmaidens of patriarchy - women - in the 'be kind'/queer/identity politics brigade are not holding the line against male entrants. And if the SG wins this case, actual lesbians will have lost that war.

i wondered if it would be lawful to ask a potential applicant for services if they are male bodied?

I have a feeling that would be construed as "harassment".

I thought that was previously considered transphobic. Hard to keep up really…

Wonder how it would work if you formed multiple groups of 25 and arranged shared activities/places.

Was it explained how this figure of 25 was reached? Why would it be fine for a group of 23 lesbians to exclude a male who proposed to join, but not a group of 27 lesbians? Is the male proposing to join counted in the number? Could a group of 20 lesbians co-host an event with another group of 20 lesbians and exclude GRC-holding males, or would they then be counted always as a group of 40 lesbians?

New turn of phrase to express feelings of exclusion:
'I feel like the 26th lesbian in a group!'

It was a circus wasn't it? The whole thing is unworkable tho. Let's run through a scenario:

Roxanne Celeste joins a long-standing well-known lesbian association of more than 25 women. Let's call it Sappho's Sisters. Sappho's Sisters' membership policy requires that applicants confirm that they are a woman and a lesbian. Roxanne ticks yes.

Roxanne does not hold a GRC but Roxanne also knows she doesn't have to disclose this.

Sappho's Sisters are none the wiser until a 6-foot-tall bloke wearing pancake makeup over stubble, wearing a frock shows up to the 'Christmas Crackers' party in an Edinburgh pub.

The lovely management team from Sappho's Sisters, all of whom are volunteers and many of whom are dispersed throughout Scotland ask for 1) Roxanne's membership card - which 'she' produces, and 2) 'her' ticket. Both check out. However, it's blatantly obvious that 'Roxanne' is male.

Remember - you can't ask for a GRC. And your membership criteria required a statement of truth - not proof of birth certificate.

Now what?

Continue the story...

Now run it in London with an association constituted in England. What impact will the Supreme Court judgment have here?