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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

For Women Scotland in the Supreme Court: LESBIANS

78 replies

GCinHE · 28/11/2024 00:02

Well I am hacked off.

SG was asked about the impact of Transwomen (TWs) on lesbian associations. After much prevarication, and an extended lunch break, the best they could offer was (wait for it, you'll laugh):

Lesbian associations of more than 25 people must accept TWs who hold GRCs if they say they are lesbians.

But lesbian associations can't ask to see GRCs.

TWs who do not hold GRCs but identify as lesbians are deemed heterosexual males under current UK Law (as it should be imo).

But lesbian associations can't ask to see GRCs.

So the judges asked the SG, what are lesbian associations supposed to do if we/they can't ask whether or not an applicant holds a GRC and thereby to determine if the applicant is legally female (a section 9 woman) or instead legally a heterosexual male?

The SG suggested we can't ask for GRCs (because menz feelings will be hurt/indirect discrimination) but we CAN ask to see birth certificates which will say Female for both natal females who do not have GRCs stating their legal sex is male, and will say Female for natal males who have legal (Section 9) sex of female.

In pragmatic terms, we will therefore have to ask all applicants to see their birth certificates so that membership policies do not indirectly discriminate against natal males. Never mind that not everybody has a birth certificate to hand.

Here's the laughable bit:

To legitimately keep TWs out of lesbian associations, the SG proposes that if the lesbian reconstituted as both a lesbian association and an association that is for lesbians holding the protected characteristic of a philosophical belief in gender critical belief I.e. that sex is immutable, then we could theoretically keep TWs with GRCs out.

What the SG did not explain is why lesbians would want any GRC-holding man 'lesbians' in our associations; why the Protected Characteristic of Philosophical Belief is now required to prop up the Protected Characteristic of Sexual Orientation (apparently some PCs under the EqA now have greater status than other PCs); and what we should do if a TW with a GRC says they are a lesbian and that they also hold a Philosophical Belief that sex is real and immutable. Which smh of course they will say that* because they will have a legal sex as female and why wouldn't they just say that?

How will lesbians be able to counter that? Say 'oh we don't believe you', or 'TWs can't legally hold a belief that sex is immutable'??

The Scottish Government has a lot to answer for and their barristers neither understood what they were arguing for, nor were able to logically articulate it, but they were nonetheless quite au fait with throwing lesbians under the bus.

This appeal had better succeed otherwise both the GRA and the EqA will be completely unworkable, and meanwhile lesbian lives and women's single-sex spaces will be over-run with autogynephiles, pornsick incels, male supremacists, mentally ill males, garden variety sexual predators, misogynists all with the power to define what lesbians are, unlike actual lesbians.

I am so aggravated.

OP posts:
Kucinghitam · 01/12/2024 17:27

MrsM1ggins · 30/11/2024 19:22

I don't know what all the fuss is about. It's obvious what the SG mean with their interpretation of the EA&GRA! 🤣

That is an excellent flowchart. But it would never pass Step 1 on the Path of the Righteous, because TRSOH answer to the initial question is "There's no such thing as sex which is a social construct and also it is a spectrum of extreme complexity and also nobody can ever tell what sex anybody else is without chromosome tests and a biology PhD! Bigot!"

Sazzasez · 04/12/2024 17:52

LoobiJee · 28/11/2024 18:29

He said that there is nothing in the law as written which prohibits asking. (It is unlawful to disclose the answer to any third parties).
^^
Given the salience of a GRC & the privileges it confers, especially after the Haldane judgement, it would truly be bizarre if nobody was allowed to ask about it.”

I’m glad you’ve raised this point. I’ve been puzzled about where this “you can’t ask” has come from and how it has gained such currency. It’s an offence to disclose someone’s GRC status if that information was acquired whilst acting in an official capacity. But I’m not aware of asking about a GRC being an offence in any legislation.

The argument that you can’t ask them because you’d be “outing” them as a transwoman is nonsense - it’s not the GRC / lack of GRC that “outs” them, it’s being visibly male that outs them.

Well, logically, if the law provides penalties for disclosing the GRC status of an individual that you have “acquired in an official capacity” it must therefore be legal to acquire that information.

Surely?

IANAL but it’s a puzzler, isn’t it?

Sazzasez · 04/12/2024 17:55

maltravers · 28/11/2024 20:12

But if you can ask to see a GRC for purposes of deciding admission, but can’t tell the other people running the event/security “yes/no, this person can/can’t come in” (because that is de facto disclosure to a third party) what use is that?

There is that.

if Warren from Accounts is now using the ladies’ loos at work & you ask HR why this is allowed, HR is apparently is to say “be kind!” & “trust me, sis,” rather than “he’s now legally Warrenetta & our hands are tied”.

Bit of a giveaway, isn’t it?

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