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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions
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29
Ereshkigalangcleg · 27/11/2024 21:01

Sample Reddit r/transgenderuk quote:

"Have you been listening btw.

The KC representing Scotgov has flat out said.

  1. There are only two genders.
  1. Trans women without a GRC are not women.
  1. Trans women who love women are not lesbians (unless they have a GRC).
  1. Trans men with a GRC are not entitled to IVF or maternity leave due to being male.

With friends like that..."

Mmmnotsure · 27/11/2024 21:04

Ereshkigalangcleg · 27/11/2024 20:57

Now that is annoying. If you think how many hours and days of women's time and energy, not to mention the fundraising costs, have been sacrificed in trying to protect their basic rights from men who are insisting that they are women...

However, you have to take the fun where you find it. Among the things they point out JKR's thousands could have done instead, are:

Sent 44,300 malaria nets to people in need through the Against Malaria Foundation

Saved and Rehabilitated 14,000 pigeons through local bird rescues

Pigeons ? !

ArabellaScott · 27/11/2024 21:05

Hey. Don't knock pigeons.

OP posts:
IwantToRetire · 27/11/2024 21:05

The KC representing Scotgov has flat out said.

  1. There are only two genders.
  2. Trans women without a GRC are not women.
  3. Trans women who love women are not lesbians (unless they have a GRC).
  4. Trans men with a GRC are not entitled to IVF or maternity leave due to being male.

Well this is what happens when people think some assorted folk at Stonewall are better able to explain the law, then those who have read the law.

But what is disturbing is that a Government (lets not name and shame them) let alone a "women's service provider" also chose to follow rainbowed explanations.

RedToothBrush · 27/11/2024 21:05

Bannedontherun · 27/11/2024 20:21

I think some of us are in the mud of politics, which is not the same as Courts decisions on what the law does and does not mean. Especially the Supreme Court

The Supreme Court has to come to a decision either for the appellant or the respondent, which will require an interpretation of how the GRA does or does not have an effect on the EQA

It cannot just shrug its shoulders and refer it to Parliament.

If Parliament does not like the Supreme Court decision then parliament has to issue legislation to repeal whatever the SC decides.

In this situation the appellant has asked that the SC give clarity to the absurdities that the Scottish Court in their judgement, both highlighted, and generated.

If the SC clears up this mess as i think it will do, then the Labour Party are well and truly off the hook.

I think the SC WILL clean up the mess tbh.

It is literally points to have sex AND gender reassignment as separate classifications within the Equality Act.

The Equality Act also laid out cases where it's ok to discriminate to protect women in certain scenarios.

What is the point in these exceptions if they cease to exist because of a piece of paper? Does the dignity and legal rights of women to hold certain beliefs suddenly evaporate because of a piece of paper?

And it's very hard to argue that women and giry DO NOT deserve protection under existing voyeurism and child protection laws.

So it's not just the Equality Act that's in direct conflict with the GRA. It's also other laws.

Especially when the purpose of these laws relates to sexual gratifications and issues over lack of consent or ability to consent.

The Haldane ruling is still problematic in my eyes, but relates primarily to 'social acceptance' rather than biological function. (I do think it falls foul of indirect discrimination against women though).

And that's where we will probably see the line drawn - along the lines of biological function exclusive to males/males and the issue of sexual gratification. (This then covers pregnancy, lesbians and men wanking off in changing rooms and toilets).

That's effectively going to throw the practical use and application of the GRA into turmoil though and raise questions about whether it's legally fit for purpose.

But this then does feed into politics and the implications of this. Labour have actually said they want to make it easier to get a GRC. It's a manifesto pledge, not just some random promise. But a GRC is only useful in certain situations anyway. What's the point in a GRC if it doesn't give you superpowers? You are just another non-conforming male and probably still in the possession of a penis.

You also have issues about a conflict with the GRA and freedom of belief still though. Pronouns being your big issue here. Again we run into issues pretty quickly with legal cases too. The dignity of women IS affected by the use of non gendered language too. So you can't just reduce women to bodily functions. The most you can do is use pregnant women and transmen and name them separately rather than collectively - or similar in the appropriate way for the appropriate situation. Effectively third spacing.

The Supreme Court CAN NOT force individuals to ignore sex in favour of gender identity - and since both are mentioned. The importance of sex is written into law as separate is important and there are implications for healthcare which negatively affects trans people if you fail to acknowledge sex. Regardless of how anyone identifies. The SC cant overnight criminalise a doctor legitimately asking sex based questions because that would be insane and against the interests of trans people themselves too.

So in terms of the law v politics, I think you can't separate them - they overlap precisely because they act as checks and balances to each other and one creates the other to a large extent. They have a symbiosis.

And I don't think that which ever way the ruling does go, that the Supreme Court won't leave a giant turd for Labour to clean up in terms of rectifying huge conflicts within the legislation.

I personally think it's the GRA that's ultimately the problem here precisely because there's at least three laws it's directly in conflict with.

I could be wrong, but logically speaking it makes sense when you look at the intent, purpose and history of the Equality Act, Voyeurism laws AND Freedom of Belief laws. The same can not be said for the GRA which was largely created for a purpose that's largely redundant.

What I can see the result being is effective self ID BUT a formal legal disbarring from certain situations and the implications of that putting requirements for companies and organisations to adopt third ways. It would potentially criminalise using wrong sex toilets. It would also knock on the head forced pronouns and change diversity training in this area but lean in hard on existing discrimination and harassment laws to otherwise protect trans people in everyday life.

Because quite honestly it's literally the only way that you can achieve a balancing of rights across the board and still maintain equality for all.

The problem is all those altered birth certificates being in conflict with this and leaving a bunch of people in limbo.

Im struggling to see how the SC can rule differently given how the conflicts work in law and the history of the law. I could be massively wrong on this, but the law is essentially about reasoning and looking at the letter of the law.

And since the EA ALLOWS for discrimination on the basis of sex this is the key point.

Of course if I am right (and I might not be) this is all going to upset the trans lobby massively. But Labour could still lean in on the idea of reforming the GRA and making it easier to get a GRC (or equivalent) whilst simultaneously destroying much of the point of getting one - by introducing 'self ID' but with those legal disbarring from certain female facilities and services. They could try and spin it, but I don't think that will work either.

But yeah, I think that's where this is all liable to head.

We shall see.

NonPlayerCharacter · 27/11/2024 21:06

Mmmnotsure · 27/11/2024 21:04

Now that is annoying. If you think how many hours and days of women's time and energy, not to mention the fundraising costs, have been sacrificed in trying to protect their basic rights from men who are insisting that they are women...

However, you have to take the fun where you find it. Among the things they point out JKR's thousands could have done instead, are:

Sent 44,300 malaria nets to people in need through the Against Malaria Foundation

Saved and Rehabilitated 14,000 pigeons through local bird rescues

Pigeons ? !

He can donate to Lumos to offset it if it worries him so much. And stop attempting to dismantle women's rights.

larklane17 · 27/11/2024 21:07

Thanks all.
Blimey that Reddit is something else.
I'm ok for malaria nets thanks folx, JKR bought us all one each already.

ArabellaScott · 27/11/2024 21:08

Labour could still lean in on the idea of reforming the GRA and making it easier to get a GRC (or equivalent) whilst simultaneously destroying much of the point of getting one

The judges did ask more than once 'what's the point of a certificate if you can't ask for one and you don't need one to prove discrimination'.

OP posts:
SquirrelSoShiny · 27/11/2024 21:09

Ereshkigalangcleg · 27/11/2024 20:57

That thread really needs an irony alert!

'Imagine JKR spending her own money on helping women and children's rights instead of helping meeeeeeeeeee by forcing reality to conform to meeeeeeeee!'

90% of those posts can be summarised by screaming 'Meeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee! Meeeeeeeeeeeee! Meeeeeeeeeeee!' While accusing everyone else of being selfish bigots of course.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 27/11/2024 21:10

I can't read it because it's premium (who on earth subscribes to the Independent?) but RMW has written an article.

www.independent.co.uk/independentpremium/voices/for-women-scotland-anti-trans-rights-b2654578.html

RedToothBrush · 27/11/2024 21:11

Mmmnotsure · 27/11/2024 21:04

Now that is annoying. If you think how many hours and days of women's time and energy, not to mention the fundraising costs, have been sacrificed in trying to protect their basic rights from men who are insisting that they are women...

However, you have to take the fun where you find it. Among the things they point out JKR's thousands could have done instead, are:

Sent 44,300 malaria nets to people in need through the Against Malaria Foundation

Saved and Rehabilitated 14,000 pigeons through local bird rescues

Pigeons ? !

I know a man who had a job dealing with problem pigeons. Pigeons are a problem because their muck can contain diseases. Problem pigeons are under certain conditions legally considered vermin, as whilst they also have protected status, if you have tried to otherwise resolve the matter or can demonstrate they are causing a threat to public health you can apply to shoot them.

It's really really not the best example.

RedToothBrush · 27/11/2024 21:12

ArabellaScott · 27/11/2024 21:08

Labour could still lean in on the idea of reforming the GRA and making it easier to get a GRC (or equivalent) whilst simultaneously destroying much of the point of getting one

The judges did ask more than once 'what's the point of a certificate if you can't ask for one and you don't need one to prove discrimination'.

To change your birth certificate...

... That's the point the law collapses at.

larklane17 · 27/11/2024 21:13

It's an existential attack on people like me cries RMW.
Yet is quite happy supporting existential attacks on Lesbians.

IwantToRetire · 27/11/2024 21:13

The Haldane ruling is still problematic in my eyes, but relates primarily to 'social acceptance' rather than biological function.

The Haldane ruling is not about "social acceptance" it is about a strict reading of the words in the EA.

And as I keep saying, if those who wrote the law hadn't meant men with GRC to be taken as women " for all purposes" there would have been no need for the single sex exemptions.

It is because the law is against social acceptance, ie years of women and men safeguarded in terms of privacy in toilets etc., that the SSE had to be written. Because even the die harden TRAs realised there had to be occassion when actual sex took primance over a certificate.

That is why the TRA petition to Parliament didn't want the word sex to be defined in the EA as biology, and why the GC petition did.

I would so love to see what KB had written up as a follow up to the HoC meeting that discussed the EA needing re wording.

Maybe she could offer it up as a gesture of good will to the W&EC. I am sure Rosie Duffield would be able to present it!

Snowypeaks · 27/11/2024 21:14

Random commenting alert...

IANAL, but surely the SC would have to find that s9(1) of the GRA is more than a deeming provision AND that it extends beyond the purposes stated in the GRA AND that it is not disapplied from the EA by necessary implication, to find in SG's favour? That seems like quite a tall order.

Also, if s9(1) is not a deeming provision, it has replaced the normal meaning of Sex in the EA. Completely. If it doesn't mean that sex = certificated sex only, it is only a deeming provision, because bio sex is unchangeable. If it is not a deeming provision and it does change the sex of a person, then sex cannot be biological. The concepts of certificated sex and bio sex are fundamentally different. One can't be a subset of the other. A certificate is irrelevant to bio sex and biology is irrelevant to certificated sex. They also point out that sex and gender are used interchangeably. The same language - sex - is used throughout the EA. So that must mean that all references to Sex are to certificated sex OR all references to Sex are to bio sex. I don't see how they can argue that Sex is bio sex+certificated sex and which one it is depends on the context.
I think, anyway. I am tired and have no legal expertise!

Regarding the case which caused no-fault divorce to be introduced, I don't think it's relevant. The judges' ruling was that the law had an unfair and cruel consequence, but not a nonsensical or illogical one. It's reasonable in principle that a person has to stick to a contract, which is what a marriage is, unless they have legal reasons to break it. But the effect of not disapplying the GRA to the EA leads to consequences which are absurd and some of which undermine or even annihilate the purposes of the Act. Yes, they are also cruel and unfair, but the weakness of the SG's case is that it makes the EA unworkable and in parts redundant.

Mmmnotsure · 27/11/2024 21:15

ArabellaScott · 27/11/2024 21:05

Hey. Don't knock pigeons.

Hey. You with your serious drawing skillz, @ArabellaScott :)

Ereshkigalangcleg · 27/11/2024 21:16

There would still need to be single sex exceptions if trans wasn't a thing. There wouldn't need to be specific ones on the basis of gender reassignment. They are two separate categories.

RedToothBrush · 27/11/2024 21:18

Ereshkigalangcleg · 27/11/2024 21:16

There would still need to be single sex exceptions if trans wasn't a thing. There wouldn't need to be specific ones on the basis of gender reassignment. They are two separate categories.

Exactly.

The separate categories and the explicit right for single sex exceptions raise big question marks.

ItsAllGoingToBeFine · 27/11/2024 21:19

Ereshkigalangcleg · 27/11/2024 21:10

I can't read it because it's premium (who on earth subscribes to the Independent?) but RMW has written an article.

www.independent.co.uk/independentpremium/voices/for-women-scotland-anti-trans-rights-b2654578.html

https://archive.li/tZvY3

Ereshkigalangcleg · 27/11/2024 21:20

Cheers @ItsAllGoingToBeFine

IwantToRetire · 27/11/2024 21:20

Social norms or whatever should have and still could have in law:

" that for all purposes sex means biology sex" and then instead of single Sex exemptions, there could be GRC exemptions it for the very limited occassion when a certificate could take primacy over biological facts. eg a driving licence, marriage certificate or whatever, but never ever in relation to service provision, whether health, toilets, support services.

ie the GRC as a piece of paper should only re-interpret other bits of paper and NEVER EVER personal interaction.

Let paper speak to paper.

Let biology rule - OK!

murasaki · 27/11/2024 21:20

I'm more than happy with JKR not buying mosquito nets. After all she did buy a whole single biological sex based rape crisis centre, that'll do for me.

larklane17 · 27/11/2024 21:20

ArabellaScott · 27/11/2024 20:55

Scottish government says ye arnae a lesbian unless you get the certificate, lads.

That is just ace. I want to frame it.

ArabellaScott · 27/11/2024 21:20

RedToothBrush · 27/11/2024 21:11

I know a man who had a job dealing with problem pigeons. Pigeons are a problem because their muck can contain diseases. Problem pigeons are under certain conditions legally considered vermin, as whilst they also have protected status, if you have tried to otherwise resolve the matter or can demonstrate they are causing a threat to public health you can apply to shoot them.

It's really really not the best example.

Pigeons are very clean birds.

https://campuslife.london.ac.uk/story/36550150/pigeons-unheralded-urban-marvels

Psittacosis can be caught from any infected bird.

www.gov.uk/guidance/psittacosis

Pigeons: Unheralded Urban Marvels

Why pigeons deserve a better reputation

https://campuslife.london.ac.uk/story/36550150/pigeons-unheralded-urban-marvels

OP posts:
RedToothBrush · 27/11/2024 21:22

ArabellaScott · 27/11/2024 21:20

Pigeons are very clean birds.

https://campuslife.london.ac.uk/story/36550150/pigeons-unheralded-urban-marvels

Psittacosis can be caught from any infected bird.

www.gov.uk/guidance/psittacosis

It's about the numbers. And where they nest. And the damage they do to listed buildings.

You don't get chickens nesting on the houses of parliament or the national gallery.

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