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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions
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29
ArabellaScott · 27/11/2024 21:24

Well, seagulls cause similar problems. I love them, too. 😊

OP posts:
GailBlancheViola · 27/11/2024 21:25

ArabellaScott · 27/11/2024 20:41

Brilliant that the recording is up there to watch for posterity.

The judge with the suddenly buoyant eyebrows is at 1:24 of yesterday's afternoon session, for anyone who missed it.

I said I'd make a gif but I'm a bit wary of copyright, and I can't see how to rip the footage, so an old fashioned court sketch will have to do for now.

(No inferences to be drawn from the purple suit and green chair; I've mislaid my black pencil.)

What a talent you have, Arabella and I do think the purple and green is most fitting.

borntobequiet · 27/11/2024 21:32

You don't get chickens nesting on the houses of parliament or the national gallery.

But they’re definitely a problem when they all come home to roost. A bit like now, for some, perhaps.

Needanewname42 · 27/11/2024 21:40

Appalonia · 27/11/2024 19:29

I think that is really something to take great heart from. I joined MN in 2012 and always read the FWR Board here, which was great. But, when women started to talk about the threat to women's rights from the T agenda and slowly more and more women started to really get it, there has been a whole women's movement started from here. There's so much experience, insight, support and energy, which has created real life groups and we have managed to push back so hard on this. I think everyone should be incredibly proud of what we've all achieved, against tremendous odds.

Yes absolutely it was the women of MN that peeked me.
I joined around 2015, and they absolutely peeked me with the help of Rachel McKinnon (who i think might have named changed again)

RedToothBrush · 27/11/2024 21:43

ArabellaScott · 27/11/2024 21:24

Well, seagulls cause similar problems. I love them, too. 😊

Not quite to the same extent. But yes they can be dealt with too.

I'm afraid I have been 'radicalised' over many years to detest pigeons and seagulls and I make no apology for it.

WeeBisom · 27/11/2024 21:44

If a law is incompatible with a convention right, the Supreme Court is able to declare the law incompatible with the human rights act. Parliament is then supposed to consider the law and fix it so it is compatible with human rights (they don't have to, but they usually do.) I have seen cases where the Supreme Court has said they can't do anything and it's up to parliament, like in assisted dying cases. But this case is different because it really is an interpretation of what the laws mean, and the words within the statutes. The court is able to say 'well this is what parliament must have intended, so this is what the law means and how it works.'

My prediction is FWS will win because the court is extremely reluctant to have flexible meanings of the same word in statutes. If a statute refers to 'woman' the presumption is that 'woman' means the same thing across the whole law. The Scottish government proposes that 'woman' means females with a GRC saying they are male sometimes, but sometimes 'woman' excludes females with a GRC saying they are male. If Parliament had meant this by the law, why didn't they just say so? And is it really conceivable that parliament , when it drafted the equality act, had in mind categories like 'females with a GRC' and 'females without a GRC"? Surely not.

The Court is also concerned about how this legislation works in practice. The equality act is wide ranging legislation that applies to all service providers, schools, charities, associations, businesses, etc. There is lots of guidance in very clear language to enable ordinary people to comply with the equality act. The Scottish government proposal turns the law into an unworkable mess. The intention of the legislation is to enable the woman who runs a waxing business from her home to legally refuse to wax male customers - she cannot be expected to know about GRCs, and males with GRCs, and males without.

ConstructionTime · 27/11/2024 21:49

WeeBisom · 27/11/2024 14:16

In the written submissions the Scottish government said the fact that males with GRCS could be admitted into lesbian groups (and lesbians would not be able to legally exclude them) didn't matter because lesbians weren't required to speak to them, or find them attractive. They basically said, 'who cares if men are present, the lesbians won't be forced to do anything so it's not a big deal'.

Apart from everything else, the fact they are there means the group members can't talk freely amongst each other - no private spaces.

If it doesn't matter, I'd want a spy certificate so that I can sit in with the MI5 meetings. They don't have to talk to me to tell me any classified government secrets.

MissScarletInTheBallroom · 27/11/2024 21:56

PepeParapluie · 27/11/2024 18:52

I think there is some hope of FWS winning on interpretation. While the black and white letter of the law has a conflict between the ‘all purposes’ in the GRA and use of sex in the EA, the general rules of interpretation mean they could conclude Parliament can’t possibly have intended the consequences set out by FWS and sex must be limited to biological sex. My (not very expert!) feeling is that that’s a hard battle because the actual express wording isn’t that ambiguous and if Parliament were repealing bits of the GRA when passing the EA, it’s hard to argue they just forgot about it. But it is also quite compelling that there would essentially be no single sex services if SG are right, and so what’s the point in much of the EA?

If they don’t go so far as to interpret it that way, I expect they will express a lot of dissatisfaction with the drafting and interaction between the legislation. That’s not super unusual in my experience, there are several acts in my practice area which are poorly drafted and much lamented by judges. But because they manage to muddle through and they’re not public law type things, they don’t get amended by parliament.

What would be different here (I hope!) is that the social and political fallout of the court finding in favour of the SG would be HUGE. People would be outraged if women’s groups can’t meet, lesbians can’t exclude men, etc. If our highest court says that’s the law of our country, I can’t see parliament being able to bury that.

And what is particularly glorious is that Labour can't even blame this clusterfuck on anyone else, since both the GRA and the EA were passed by the last Labour government.

They were essentially elected to try to fix the fuck ups made by the Tories over the last 14 years, but they'll end up having to spend time fixing their own fuck ups from 15-20 years ago.

NotAtMyAge · 27/11/2024 21:59

Ereshkigalangcleg · 27/11/2024 21:10

I can't read it because it's premium (who on earth subscribes to the Independent?) but RMW has written an article.

www.independent.co.uk/independentpremium/voices/for-women-scotland-anti-trans-rights-b2654578.html

This is where I find Archive.ph so immensely useful. Someone archived that article 2 hours ago.

https://archive.ph/tZvY3

porridgecake · 27/11/2024 22:02

I went to my lecture and then for dinner. A retired (male) professor sat next to me. He asked me if I know what was going on in the supreme court today. I said yes! He said "they are deciding what a woman is!!! " He proceeded to rant for the next couple of minutes about the world having gone mad, then we had a glass of wine each. It was very satisfying. Then I came home and caught up with this thread. (Haven't bothered to look for any lipstick).

TWETMIRF · 27/11/2024 22:03

Needanewname42 · 27/11/2024 21:40

Yes absolutely it was the women of MN that peeked me.
I joined around 2015, and they absolutely peeked me with the help of Rachel McKinnon (who i think might have named changed again)

He was calling himself Ron, sorry Veronica Ivy last time I heard

MrsOvertonsWindow · 27/11/2024 22:03

NotAtMyAge · 27/11/2024 21:59

This is where I find Archive.ph so immensely useful. Someone archived that article 2 hours ago.

https://archive.ph/tZvY3

It's a classic isn't it? The cult of me, my wishes, my demands with not a single moment of awareness of the rights of women and girls. So outing 😂

Snowypeaks · 27/11/2024 22:06

That article is... unreal.

MissScarletInTheBallroom · 27/11/2024 22:08

Mmmnotsure · 27/11/2024 21:04

Now that is annoying. If you think how many hours and days of women's time and energy, not to mention the fundraising costs, have been sacrificed in trying to protect their basic rights from men who are insisting that they are women...

However, you have to take the fun where you find it. Among the things they point out JKR's thousands could have done instead, are:

Sent 44,300 malaria nets to people in need through the Against Malaria Foundation

Saved and Rehabilitated 14,000 pigeons through local bird rescues

Pigeons ? !

Luckily she's so rich she can afford to bankroll this case AND provide the only single sex rape crisis support in Scotland AND support institutionalised children worldwide AND donate to research on motor neurone disease AND she's still making money faster than she can spend it.

I'm guessing she's saved a bit by no longer donating to the Labour Party though.

LoobiJee · 27/11/2024 22:09

MissScarletInTheBallroom · 27/11/2024 21:56

And what is particularly glorious is that Labour can't even blame this clusterfuck on anyone else, since both the GRA and the EA were passed by the last Labour government.

They were essentially elected to try to fix the fuck ups made by the Tories over the last 14 years, but they'll end up having to spend time fixing their own fuck ups from 15-20 years ago.

“And what is particularly glorious is that Labour can't even blame this clusterfuck on anyone else, since both the GRA and the EA were passed by the last Labour government.”

Not only that, but their policy position is that they are proud of the GRA and the EA, which they consider to be workable, and not need in of amending.

MrsOvertonsWindow · 27/11/2024 22:13

LoobiJee · 27/11/2024 22:09

“And what is particularly glorious is that Labour can't even blame this clusterfuck on anyone else, since both the GRA and the EA were passed by the last Labour government.”

Not only that, but their policy position is that they are proud of the GRA and the EA, which they consider to be workable, and not need in of amending.

Indeed - they've doubled down on this. Yet again beclowning themselves. Sigh

Boiledbeetle · 27/11/2024 22:16

ArabellaScott · 27/11/2024 21:05

Hey. Don't knock pigeons.

The pigeons are revolting!

For Women Scotland in Supreme court - thread 2
murasaki · 27/11/2024 22:19

MrsOvertonsWindow · 27/11/2024 22:13

Indeed - they've doubled down on this. Yet again beclowning themselves. Sigh

Beclowning is a wonderful word.

Mmmnotsure · 27/11/2024 22:21

MissScarletInTheBallroom · 27/11/2024 22:08

Luckily she's so rich she can afford to bankroll this case AND provide the only single sex rape crisis support in Scotland AND support institutionalised children worldwide AND donate to research on motor neurone disease AND she's still making money faster than she can spend it.

I'm guessing she's saved a bit by no longer donating to the Labour Party though.

I know. Isn't it glorious.

Mind you, I suspect quite a lot of women are saving money by no longer donating to the Labour Party. See also unions.

MrsOvertonsWindow · 27/11/2024 22:22

murasaki · 27/11/2024 22:19

Beclowning is a wonderful word.

Isn't it. When you try to argue that a paper certificate turns a heterosexual man into a lesbian it's the perfect description 😂

GailBlancheViola · 27/11/2024 22:25

Re the article from RMW - a summary We trans people have to have all the rights and women must have none. The End.

BabaYagasHouse · 27/11/2024 22:28

Villagetoraiseachild · 27/11/2024 19:51

Clarissa Pinkola Estes has said that every seven years women
(collectively ) have to fight again for something they had previously taken for granted.

Oh! I love 'Women who Run with the Wolves' (clue in my username😉), but didn't know she had said this. Thank you for that info!

BonfireLady · 27/11/2024 22:31

AlbertCamusflage · 27/11/2024 14:56

The situation (as represented in the court just now) appears to be that you can "create a space for women only based on the belief that a man is never a woman, no matter how he feels about it" (thank you Maya), but you can't create a space for women only based on the truth of that belief.

I would agree that this is what's being represented but I think a massive point is being missed here. Maya also secured the legal protection not to believe that everyone has a gender identity.

So as I see it, a group could form using their lack of belief as their commonality, presumably much as humanists/atheists might do. This would presumably naturally exclude any TW who tried to use their belief that they are a woman.

Paragraphs 107 and 108 of her tribunal appeal cover this:

https://x.com/anyabike/status/1749777661855940901?t=UrVFIA-9jEVPQRLe5mmBbg&s=19

x.com

https://x.com/anyabike/status/1749777661855940901?s=19&t=UrVFIA-9jEVPQRLe5mmBbg

Boiledbeetle · 27/11/2024 22:32

GailBlancheViola · 27/11/2024 22:25

Re the article from RMW - a summary We trans people have to have all the rights and women must have none. The End.

Thank you. I tried to read it twice but just couldn't get to the end of it!

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