Meet the Other Phone. Only the apps you allow.

Meet the Other Phone.
Only the apps you allow.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

Feminism: Sex and gender discussions
Thread gallery
29
OneOfLittleConsequence · 27/11/2024 20:10

I am eternally grateful to the wise witches of mumsnet for opening my eyes and making me a witch too

Another2Cats · 27/11/2024 20:11

RedToothBrush · 27/11/2024 18:37

They could say that there's clearly a problem with the law and that there's a conflict that needs to be addressed in their ruling.

This could be a ruling that ultimately goes in favour of either group but they highlight the inadequacy of the law as part of that ruling.

"...but they highlight the inadequacy of the law as part of that ruling."

Something similar happened with divorce. Up until 2022 there was no such thing as a "no fault" divorce. The Divorce, Dissolution and Separation Act 2020 came into effect on 25 June 2022.

Before 2022 anyone wanting to get divorced (other than separating for five years) had to give reasons as to why and show why they could not live with their spouse. It also got rid of all the old terms like "decree nisi" and "decree absolute" etc

This was prompted by a fascinating divorce case (Owens v Owens) that, likewise, went all the way to the Supreme Court.

Mr & Mrs Owens married in 1978 and Mrs Owens then filed for divorce in 2015 (she was 65 and he was 77).

Quite unusually, Mr Owens decided to defend the case. The judge at first instance held that there was not sufficient evidence to grant a divorce and so it went to the Court of Appeal.

It is plain from his judgment that Judge Tolson was unimpressed by the wife’s petition. He variously described it as “hopeless” (judgment, paragraph 2), “anodyne” (paragraph 7), and “scraping the barrel”...

This was heard by Sir James Munby (then President of the Family Division), Lady Justice Hallet and Lady Justice Macur.

The court reviewed the authorities and came to the same decision. They said that their hands were tied.

At para [2] the question was explicitly asked:

"If, for whatever reasons, we find ourselves unable to interfere, the question inevitably arises whether, in 2017, the law is in a remotely satisfactory condition?"
.

At para [38]

"This is the law. This is the law which it was the duty of Judge Tolson to apply. It is the law which it is equally our duty to apply. It is well known that many hold the view that this is not what the law should be, that times have moved on since 1969, and that the law is badly out-of-date, indeed antediluvian. That may be, and those who hold such views may be right, but our judicial duty is clear. As Sir Gorell Barnes P said in Dodd v Dodd [1906] P 189, 206, our task is jus dicere non jus dare – to state the law, not to make the law."

However, he did go on to say that it is the duty of the court to look at matters from the perspective of the current day and not of the past (even citing the man on the Clapham omnibus). He gave several examples eg

"The concept of cruelty is the same today as it was when the Bill of Rights 1688 forbade the infliction of “cruel and unusual punishments”. But changes in social standards mean that punishments which would not have been regarded as cruel in 1688 will be so regarded today."

and

"The most obvious application of the principle in family law relates to the concept of a child’s “welfare”, as the word was used in section 1 of the Guardianship of Infants Act 1925, now section 1 of the Children Act 1989. The concept of welfare is, no doubt, the same today as it was in 1925, but ... the content of the concept, ... have changed and continue to change. A child’s welfare is to be judged today by the standards of reasonable men and women in 2017 – not by the standards of their grandparents in 1925 or their parents in 1969 ... and having regard to the ever changing nature of our world, in particular, changes in social attitudes"

He then went on to discuss the history of divorce and an interesting history of the "hotel divorce" (yes, this is all in the judgment). But at the end of all that could not overturn the original decision.

Owens v Owens [2017] EWCA Civ 182

The case then ended up at the Supreme Court. But here again, the Court said that it could not interfere despite the changes in attitudes in society. But ended with the sentence:

"Parliament may wish to consider whether to replace a law which denies to Mrs Owens any present entitlement to a divorce in the above circumstances."

Owens v Owens [2018] UKSC 41

Then, two years later in 2020, a new Act was passed which eventually came in to force in 2022 making this happen.

Owens v Owens [2017] EWCA Civ 182 (24 March 2017)

https://www.bailii.org/cgi-bin/format.cgi?doc=/ew/cases/EWCA/Civ/2017/182.html

Ereshkigalangcleg · 27/11/2024 20:15

That's really interesting @Another2Cats, thank you.

ConstructionTime · 27/11/2024 20:16

NoBinturongsHereMate · 27/11/2024 14:13

So a male with a GRC attracted to women becomes a lesbian, but lesbians are still attracted to women regardless of some women being MwaGRC and might not be attracted to women who are MwaGRC?

I'm with the judge in this - I don't see how she thinks things a sensible argument.

What kind of example would then people like Zooey Zepyhr and their "fiancee" Erin be? Do they think they are two lesbians?

Or is this a PR relationship to prove a point?

Bannedontherun · 27/11/2024 20:21

I think some of us are in the mud of politics, which is not the same as Courts decisions on what the law does and does not mean. Especially the Supreme Court

The Supreme Court has to come to a decision either for the appellant or the respondent, which will require an interpretation of how the GRA does or does not have an effect on the EQA

It cannot just shrug its shoulders and refer it to Parliament.

If Parliament does not like the Supreme Court decision then parliament has to issue legislation to repeal whatever the SC decides.

In this situation the appellant has asked that the SC give clarity to the absurdities that the Scottish Court in their judgement, both highlighted, and generated.

If the SC clears up this mess as i think it will do, then the Labour Party are well and truly off the hook.

ToiletTroubles · 27/11/2024 20:22

YellowRoom · 27/11/2024 18:24

I shouldn't be shocked, i should know better but i'm still astonished that when considering men's wants, the needs of women aren't even considered.

My work has made all our toilets mixed-sex. When I asked what consultation was done with women - tumbleweed. Impact assessment - tumbleweed. That this has been decided on but no-one actually bothered to tell the workforce - tumbleweed. And so on. They simply did not consider women.

Same here. And it's a government office 🙄🙄🙄

BonfireLady · 27/11/2024 20:23

porridgecake · 27/11/2024 12:37

I did swear a bit. Which isn't ladylike. Looks like I will have to tell DH we have been living a lie...

My first post on this excellent thread, after catching up with its equally excellent predecessor.

I couldn't just skip by without comment, given your obvious distress.
It must be gutting to have just realised you're not viably a woman.

I would suggest you try and find a photo of you wearing lipstick and/or a dress from what is obviously more than two years ago and put in an application for a GRC immediately. With luck, you'll have your womanhood certified as real and valid before you have to discuss this awkward situation with your husband and children.

🙃

Mmmnotsure · 27/11/2024 20:28

I would hazard that the SG lawyer wishes she had never mentioned needing a flow chart. They are all over TwiX. Here is one from moleatthedoor:
https://x.com/moleatthedoor/status/1861795363595706827/photo/1

x.com

https://x.com/moleatthedoor/status/1861795363595706827/photo/1

Mmmnotsure · 27/11/2024 20:32

In case you don’t want to click on links:

For Women Scotland in Supreme court - thread 2
Ramblingnamechanger · 27/11/2024 20:40

I posted a thread about this case in AIBU and there was a rather successful poll suggesting that nearly all women think that the whole question of what a woman is in the SC is completely ludicrous. It’s not there any more for some strange reason….

ArabellaScott · 27/11/2024 20:41

Brilliant that the recording is up there to watch for posterity.

The judge with the suddenly buoyant eyebrows is at 1:24 of yesterday's afternoon session, for anyone who missed it.

I said I'd make a gif but I'm a bit wary of copyright, and I can't see how to rip the footage, so an old fashioned court sketch will have to do for now.

(No inferences to be drawn from the purple suit and green chair; I've mislaid my black pencil.)

For Women Scotland in Supreme court - thread 2
OP posts:
larklane17 · 27/11/2024 20:42

Did the SG lawyer actually say there were only two genders (or was it sexes)?
Or did I imagine that bit? If I didn't, then there must be some frothing going on.

musicalfrog · 27/11/2024 20:42

We have some very talented creatives on this thread don't we! How lucky are we 😍

NonPlayerCharacter · 27/11/2024 20:47

Think he's a woman?
Why not see what happens when
women tell him no.

IwantToRetire · 27/11/2024 20:47

It cannot just shrug its shoulders and refer it to Parliament.

Nobodies saying that.

But if it indicates, even in saying case not proven, but that is because of a badly written law, as in the excellent example given about no fault divorces, it would be futher pressure on the current Government.

If FWS win, you can bet there will be huge push back from TRAs who will argue the law needs to be written to make clear that TWAW.

Unfortunately (as yet) no court has ruled in any instances that sex always means biology.

Because up until about 20 years ago, nobody thought it would be needed to be spelt out.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 27/11/2024 20:53

Or did I imagine that bit? If I didn't, then there must be some frothing going on.

There is considerable frothing going on but more about them saying that an MTF "lesbian" without a certificate was a heterosexual man for the purposes of the EA.

BonfireLady · 27/11/2024 20:53

Ereshkigalangcleg · 27/11/2024 14:22

"On the other hand, a trans woman who doesn't have a certificate is to be treated as a heterosexual man"

"Yes"

Wow. (On the assumption that the "yes" was from the SG barrister)

I can't wait for this part of the case to be written up in the papers 👏👏

When the inevitable TRA meltdowns come pouring in, along will come more sunlight.

The SG barrister may just peak the whole world with this catalyst.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 27/11/2024 20:54

Wow. (On the assumption that the "yes" was from the SG barrister)

It was, she didn't look particularly happy about it.

OvaHere · 27/11/2024 20:55

larklane17 · 27/11/2024 20:42

Did the SG lawyer actually say there were only two genders (or was it sexes)?
Or did I imagine that bit? If I didn't, then there must be some frothing going on.

The Scotsgov did announce this startling U turn about a month or so ago.

Presumably ahead of this being their strategy in the SC case. Just so we know they mean it.

ArabellaScott · 27/11/2024 20:55

Ereshkigalangcleg · 27/11/2024 20:53

Or did I imagine that bit? If I didn't, then there must be some frothing going on.

There is considerable frothing going on but more about them saying that an MTF "lesbian" without a certificate was a heterosexual man for the purposes of the EA.

Scottish government says ye arnae a lesbian unless you get the certificate, lads.

OP posts:
Mmmnotsure · 27/11/2024 20:56

larklane17 · 27/11/2024 20:42

Did the SG lawyer actually say there were only two genders (or was it sexes)?
Or did I imagine that bit? If I didn't, then there must be some frothing going on.

The SG lawyer (from Tribunal Tweets substack), this morning:

RC: we say that section 7 sex reflects the acquired gender and doesn't change the meaning in section 212.

There is no third sex or gender, agreed all parties.

ArabellaScott · 27/11/2024 20:57

Yes, and they referred to that Cane woman, too, when discussing a third gender. The nonbinary one. Or, the non-non-binary one, as it turns out.

OP posts:
Ereshkigalangcleg · 27/11/2024 20:57

Guess who they blame?

www.reddit.com/r/transgenderUK/s/ZNX8q0TYbd

OvaHere · 27/11/2024 20:57

Ereshkigalangcleg · 27/11/2024 20:53

Or did I imagine that bit? If I didn't, then there must be some frothing going on.

There is considerable frothing going on but more about them saying that an MTF "lesbian" without a certificate was a heterosexual man for the purposes of the EA.

Time to bring back those 'nobody knows I'm a lesbian' men's t-shirts from the 1990s. Sounds like quite a few will be needing them.

OP posts:
Please create an account

To comment on this thread you need to create a Mumsnet account.

This thread is not accepting new messages.
Swipe left for the next trending thread