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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

US Election results

529 replies

IwantToRetire · 06/11/2024 01:26

Kamala Harris 27
45.2% popular vote
12,768,875 votes

Donald Trump 99
53.8% popular vote
15,275,564 votes

270 to win

U.S. election results 2024 | CBC News

6/11/2024 @ 01:25 GMT

U.S. election results 2024

Get live results from the U.S. presidential race between Kamala Harris and Donald Trump. See if the Democrats or Republicans win control of the House and the Senate.

https://newsinteractives.cbc.ca/elections/us/2024/results/

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27
OvaHere · 07/11/2024 09:37

duc748 · 07/11/2024 00:39

But having left it that late, it would have been very hard to not have Harris.

Yes. If the Dems, at the last minute, had dumped KH and installed a white guy, how good a look would that have been? So they were a bit screwed. But obviously, Biden should have stepped down much earlier.

Edited

I actually think the Dem party machinery is cut throat enough to have passed her up for a stronger opposition to Trump. I think it's the money that stopped them. By that stage they already had so much donor money that legally could only be used by Biden or Harris.

If it wasn't for that I think they may have gone with someone else with the reasoning they had to throw everything they had at Trump. Largely I think this reasoning would have been accepted amongst their base after a short period of outrage.

EasternStandard · 07/11/2024 09:38

OvaHere · 07/11/2024 09:37

I actually think the Dem party machinery is cut throat enough to have passed her up for a stronger opposition to Trump. I think it's the money that stopped them. By that stage they already had so much donor money that legally could only be used by Biden or Harris.

If it wasn't for that I think they may have gone with someone else with the reasoning they had to throw everything they had at Trump. Largely I think this reasoning would have been accepted amongst their base after a short period of outrage.

Yes they had a funding issue and couldn't start from scratch with such little time left

They gambled on covering up Biden's issues and it backfired at the debate

Shortshriftandlethal · 07/11/2024 09:39

mrshoho · 07/11/2024 09:24

We are in the UK and my 19 year old daughter's visceral reaction to the Trump victory yesterday was unbelievable. Full on anxiety, tears, shaking. She is ASD diagnosed and her teenage years have been rocky but the last couple of years she really seemed to accept her gender and is happy in here second year at uni. She lives at home and it all kicked off whilst I was at work. Her Dad was trying to lighten the situation by this set her off and she ended up storming out and not returning til quite late last night. She's involved in a large online community of animating/gaming/writing/role play. She was saying how "loads of my online friends are considering ending their own lives as they can't live with what Trump is going to do". I tried to speak to her late last night telling her that her and her friends should take things a day at a time and not to listen to the rumours. Omg it's hard work!

There has been so much catastrophising what would happen if Trump won.....

INeedAPensieve · 07/11/2024 09:39

RatitesUnite · 07/11/2024 05:33

@RedToothBrush you are one of the most insightful posters on MN. I always enjoy your posts.

Me too, I agree. Thanks @RedToothBrush

I remember I had a similar lecturer when I started uni in 2000, basically told us all to expand our critical thinking skills and not to look at the world in a black and white way.

RedToothBrush · 07/11/2024 09:39

mrshoho · 07/11/2024 09:24

We are in the UK and my 19 year old daughter's visceral reaction to the Trump victory yesterday was unbelievable. Full on anxiety, tears, shaking. She is ASD diagnosed and her teenage years have been rocky but the last couple of years she really seemed to accept her gender and is happy in here second year at uni. She lives at home and it all kicked off whilst I was at work. Her Dad was trying to lighten the situation by this set her off and she ended up storming out and not returning til quite late last night. She's involved in a large online community of animating/gaming/writing/role play. She was saying how "loads of my online friends are considering ending their own lives as they can't live with what Trump is going to do". I tried to speak to her late last night telling her that her and her friends should take things a day at a time and not to listen to the rumours. Omg it's hard work!

And they say there is no such thing as social contagion and there's no hyperbole from certain quarters...

Do we think there will be mass pact suicides?

And yes, lets go there and give them the benefit of the doubt and say we believe what they say and will go through with it.

If there are mass suicides from a small community, what might this tell us about this community and how healthy it is?

Does that reinforce the concerns about individuals who join this community might be well be very fair?

Mass suicides are the perserve of the indoctrinated.

RedToothBrush · 07/11/2024 09:42

I AM extremely concerned about what Trump will do especially with human rights of migrants. I am concerned that Trump will do a live experiment into the effectiveness of vaccines with appalling consequences for children. I am concerned about what he will do with regards to law and order and justice and democratic processes.

HOWEVER, threatening mass suicides REALLY is not going to help your cause here.

ZeldaFighter · 07/11/2024 09:46

I believe in democracy as our best option for governance, ironically given who won the election. Millions of Americans have cast their vote and made their choice. They believe Donald Trump will be the best leader of their country. They think the economy, immigration and their lives were better under Trump - who am I to argue?

I have heard security experts say that even though Trump's foreign policy was crazed, it was effective because other leaders genuinely feared what he might do and stayed in line. I do think he will not support Ukraine but he may take a tougher stance with Israel and the world may be more peaceful with China and Russia cowed.

Glimmers of light and hope...

TrumptonsFireEngine · 07/11/2024 09:46

Although of course there is no such thing as "LGBT+ ideology".

I disagree. There is LGB sexuality, and there is TQ+…(better not say or I might be deleted), but there is also an ideology that defines itself as “LGBTQ+” sometimes with a few more letters thrown in. Yes it could (and often does) shorten this to ‘Queer’ but it is this ideology that is pushed where ever you see “LGBTQ+”.

mrshoho · 07/11/2024 09:56

RedToothBrush · 07/11/2024 09:39

And they say there is no such thing as social contagion and there's no hyperbole from certain quarters...

Do we think there will be mass pact suicides?

And yes, lets go there and give them the benefit of the doubt and say we believe what they say and will go through with it.

If there are mass suicides from a small community, what might this tell us about this community and how healthy it is?

Does that reinforce the concerns about individuals who join this community might be well be very fair?

Mass suicides are the perserve of the indoctrinated.

Absolutely agree re the social contagion. They've been drawn to each other and appear to be the most dogmatic community with absolute black and white thinking. It's too difficult for us to have a discussion with her on many topics as it ends with us being told we are causing severe pain and distress. I really don't believe there will be mass suicides as such but vulnerable people could be coerced or given misleading information that makes them feel there is no hope.

RedToothBrush · 07/11/2024 10:04

TrumptonsFireEngine · 07/11/2024 09:46

Although of course there is no such thing as "LGBT+ ideology".

I disagree. There is LGB sexuality, and there is TQ+…(better not say or I might be deleted), but there is also an ideology that defines itself as “LGBTQ+” sometimes with a few more letters thrown in. Yes it could (and often does) shorten this to ‘Queer’ but it is this ideology that is pushed where ever you see “LGBTQ+”.

Being gay does not mean you are signed up to a particular ideology or political belief.

I think this has been one thing that woke me up to issues; why did everyone gay automatically have to be left wing and have to support the concept of changing sex? I am not talking about the US where this is much more complex due to the degree of influence of religion, but within the UK. The idea of a Conservative gay man or woman is one which is really overlooked and yet we have a considerable number of them, including some fairly prominant examples. Why? Do your political views have to match your legally recognised protected traits?!

So yes of course we have an LGBT+ ideology going on which is making this assumption that everyone who falls into a certain group should believe the same thing. This is different from being simply actually being gay. One is a political movement and one is the state of being gay which is by default neutral in political terms as its just a state of being.

I think it would be wise to draw distinction between the two for many reasons.

I do think we need to start acknowledging and accepting there is a militancy at the edges of this which is out of control and is having a negative effect on parts of society which have nothing to do with merely being a clash with religious conservative views.

The idea that if you are part of the community you MUST adhere to its tenants and all its belief structure without questioning them, is one of those concerns because its coercive, undemocratic and unaccountable. And yes dangerous. That goes for ANY community.

This is what others are seeing within the pushing of LGBT+ as a political force. And yes the opposite response has elements which are equally batshit and militant but its not happened within a bubble and without gradual esculation due to the polarisation that has occured.

Step it down a notch everywhere and expose the nutters as nutters all round, rather than enabling either extreme to take it to the next level.

LilyBartsHatShop · 07/11/2024 10:19

TrumptonsFireEngine · 07/11/2024 08:59

Could being pro-abortion actually undermine feminism too at the other extreme? If we take the position that abortion is 100% available then being pregnant becomes purely something a woman chooses to do. The need to support and value pregnancy and consider child rearing as a load on women, or even as an outcome of rape, is removed as it was a choice the woman has made. (We could argue over ‘choice’ but we are assuming full choice here.) It changes how women who have children are perceived - it is now their ‘fault’, their choice, an action to opt into not an intrinsic part of being female.

Not sure I am making my thoughts very clear here.

I think this is a really thoughtful post, thank you.

TempestTost · 07/11/2024 10:54

TrumptonsFireEngine · 07/11/2024 08:59

Could being pro-abortion actually undermine feminism too at the other extreme? If we take the position that abortion is 100% available then being pregnant becomes purely something a woman chooses to do. The need to support and value pregnancy and consider child rearing as a load on women, or even as an outcome of rape, is removed as it was a choice the woman has made. (We could argue over ‘choice’ but we are assuming full choice here.) It changes how women who have children are perceived - it is now their ‘fault’, their choice, an action to opt into not an intrinsic part of being female.

Not sure I am making my thoughts very clear here.

I think this is very much a thing.
Mostly it's kind of unconscious. But any thread about social supports for kids, you will have lots of people saying - it's a choice to be a parent, don't have children if you can't afford to give them. And IME these are not usually particularly conservative people, a lot think of themselves as being on the left, they are typical middle class professionals.

There are always plenty of people in discussions like that who can't wrap their heads around the idea that a woman in a bad spot with a pregnancy just wouldn't have an abortion.

RatitesUnite · 07/11/2024 10:56

TrumptonsFireEngine · 07/11/2024 08:59

Could being pro-abortion actually undermine feminism too at the other extreme? If we take the position that abortion is 100% available then being pregnant becomes purely something a woman chooses to do. The need to support and value pregnancy and consider child rearing as a load on women, or even as an outcome of rape, is removed as it was a choice the woman has made. (We could argue over ‘choice’ but we are assuming full choice here.) It changes how women who have children are perceived - it is now their ‘fault’, their choice, an action to opt into not an intrinsic part of being female.

Not sure I am making my thoughts very clear here.

Yes. And it allows men to walk away from their responsibilities. “She made a choice to have the kid, not me. So it’s her problem, not mine”.

Mocking and undervaluing motherhood is a massive failure of some feminist theories.

TempestTost · 07/11/2024 11:01

ZeldaFighter · 07/11/2024 09:46

I believe in democracy as our best option for governance, ironically given who won the election. Millions of Americans have cast their vote and made their choice. They believe Donald Trump will be the best leader of their country. They think the economy, immigration and their lives were better under Trump - who am I to argue?

I have heard security experts say that even though Trump's foreign policy was crazed, it was effective because other leaders genuinely feared what he might do and stayed in line. I do think he will not support Ukraine but he may take a tougher stance with Israel and the world may be more peaceful with China and Russia cowed.

Glimmers of light and hope...

If he does withdraw from Ukraine, I think other countries will too, and blame it on him. But they'd have done the same thing in the end anyway.

BecauseRonald · 07/11/2024 11:36

But it's not just about abortion, is it? There were a couple of cases during the campaign where women died due to being denied healthcare during miscarriages. Doctors wouldn't intervene until a certain number of tests showed no heartbeat, even when baby was 100% unviable and mum's life was in danger. So what to some seems a theoretical, divisive issue that only affects others, and where there is always choice, in reality has the potential to affect all women of reproductive age. To the extent that some, who ironically didn't choose abortions, paid with their lives. It's about female health care and whether a country sees women as equal or second-class citizens.

Add to that the issue of medical staff terrified of being prosecuted and leaving women to die horrific, painful, avoidable deaths through sepsis. They have to live with that on their conscience - because of politics.

Apart from that I feel Americans are a bit in denial about the economy. There has a been a pandemic and a war is ongoing that is affecting the whole world. Their economy is doing okay in the circumstances (I mean look at the uk FGS). The Democrats failed to explain that.

ItsFunToBeAVampire · 07/11/2024 11:50

Apart from that I feel Americans are a bit in denial about the economy. There has a been a pandemic and a war is ongoing that is affecting the whole world. Their economy is doing okay in the circumstances (I mean look at the uk FGS). The Democrats failed to explain that.

The same happened during the election here though.
Everything wrong with the economy in this country was solely blamed on the Tories, without a second of thought that it was mostly related to COVID and the wars. Everyone seems to forget that Labour wanted longer and harder lockdowns, leading to more debt now.

Whoever was in power while all that was going on was going to be punished by the electorate.

biscuitandcake · 07/11/2024 12:01

ItsFunToBeAVampire · 07/11/2024 11:50

Apart from that I feel Americans are a bit in denial about the economy. There has a been a pandemic and a war is ongoing that is affecting the whole world. Their economy is doing okay in the circumstances (I mean look at the uk FGS). The Democrats failed to explain that.

The same happened during the election here though.
Everything wrong with the economy in this country was solely blamed on the Tories, without a second of thought that it was mostly related to COVID and the wars. Everyone seems to forget that Labour wanted longer and harder lockdowns, leading to more debt now.

Whoever was in power while all that was going on was going to be punished by the electorate.

The Tories had been in power for a very long time though. Too long really. They had got very complacent and in addition to the issues with the economy there was Party Gate, giving of government contracts to mates especially during Covid. (Also, you could argue that part of the reason that the economic decline was hitting people so heavily was because so many things were on a knife edge thanks to austerity/failure of the government to spend responsibly during the better times). I agree that the economy was probably the motivating factor. But actually I think also people felt they had just been in power far too long. Of course that also creates a related problem that we have a Labour government that has spent so long out of power it has forgotten how to be a government not an opposition.

TrumptonsFireEngine · 07/11/2024 13:02

The Tories ran out of steam a few years ago, though it is worrying that they did so whilst Labour are in such a bad place and that Labour got such a huge majority. But I am not sure when the ‘good times’ were when they should have spent money. Labour left them with the tale end of a long recession that was the deepest recession since the 1920s. And despite Labour’s ‘good times’ they had spent the gold reserve when gold was at its cheapest, and left the NHS with billions of debt to pay for by using future money.

I suspect there is an element in all governments plans of ‘we will leave that to the next government to sort out’. And this becomes ever more of a problem when you win successive elections and become ‘the next government’.

biscuitandcake · 07/11/2024 13:12

Shortshriftandlethal · 07/11/2024 08:49

You ae using the word 'reactionary' as if it can only be a pejorative term. That to react to things is inherently negative.Though to respond or react with rejection of some issues - especially cultural issues - is part of human and social nature.

Progressives tend to see themselves as being on the right side of history...that the arc of history and change is always for the better....and that those that reject any of that are unevolved knuckle draggers.

There is so much visceral contempt emananting from Leftists these days. They can be truly unpleasant. Ironic, because the sheer hatred that has been generated for Trump ( his way of saying things - the name calling and the ridicule he engages in and so on) is matched in every way by so many who hate him. You cannot disagree with a Leftists's point, or critique it in any way without a flurry of judgemental invective and attempts at social shaming. No alternative persepctive or values can be tolerated.

Edited

There is a lot of visceral contempt emerging from the right as well. Communication has broken down and its being exacerbated by the fact that Twitter encourages people to write the very worst things, and other people are encouraged to find those things and be outraged by them.

BecauseRonald · 07/11/2024 13:13

ItsFunToBeAVampire · 07/11/2024 11:50

Apart from that I feel Americans are a bit in denial about the economy. There has a been a pandemic and a war is ongoing that is affecting the whole world. Their economy is doing okay in the circumstances (I mean look at the uk FGS). The Democrats failed to explain that.

The same happened during the election here though.
Everything wrong with the economy in this country was solely blamed on the Tories, without a second of thought that it was mostly related to COVID and the wars. Everyone seems to forget that Labour wanted longer and harder lockdowns, leading to more debt now.

Whoever was in power while all that was going on was going to be punished by the electorate.

I take the point that any government in power during the covid lockdowns was going to suffer in the next election.

But let's not pretend that Brexit, austerity and corruption didn't happen. And Boris. And Truss. Honestly...

That's another of the serious concerns against Trump - potential long term damage to institutions and changes to the American constitution.

RedToothBrush · 07/11/2024 13:15

TrumptonsFireEngine · 07/11/2024 13:02

The Tories ran out of steam a few years ago, though it is worrying that they did so whilst Labour are in such a bad place and that Labour got such a huge majority. But I am not sure when the ‘good times’ were when they should have spent money. Labour left them with the tale end of a long recession that was the deepest recession since the 1920s. And despite Labour’s ‘good times’ they had spent the gold reserve when gold was at its cheapest, and left the NHS with billions of debt to pay for by using future money.

I suspect there is an element in all governments plans of ‘we will leave that to the next government to sort out’. And this becomes ever more of a problem when you win successive elections and become ‘the next government’.

Labour didn't get a huge majority based on popular vote. The size of their victory does not convey just how waifer thin it is.

Farage will organise again with Trump in power as he sees a huge opportunity.

Don't say I didn't warn you.

RedToothBrush · 07/11/2024 13:19

TrumptonsFireEngine · 07/11/2024 13:02

The Tories ran out of steam a few years ago, though it is worrying that they did so whilst Labour are in such a bad place and that Labour got such a huge majority. But I am not sure when the ‘good times’ were when they should have spent money. Labour left them with the tale end of a long recession that was the deepest recession since the 1920s. And despite Labour’s ‘good times’ they had spent the gold reserve when gold was at its cheapest, and left the NHS with billions of debt to pay for by using future money.

I suspect there is an element in all governments plans of ‘we will leave that to the next government to sort out’. And this becomes ever more of a problem when you win successive elections and become ‘the next government’.

You knew when they ran out of steam - it was the point when they stopped pushing the benefits of Brexit and started the blame game against whoever they could pin it on with immigrants being top of the list.

TrumptonsFireEngine · 07/11/2024 13:19

RedToothBrush · 07/11/2024 13:15

Labour didn't get a huge majority based on popular vote. The size of their victory does not convey just how waifer thin it is.

Farage will organise again with Trump in power as he sees a huge opportunity.

Don't say I didn't warn you.

I know - they got less votes than last time. Much of their huge majority could be attributed to Reform.

RedToothBrush · 07/11/2024 13:20

biscuitandcake · 07/11/2024 13:12

There is a lot of visceral contempt emerging from the right as well. Communication has broken down and its being exacerbated by the fact that Twitter encourages people to write the very worst things, and other people are encouraged to find those things and be outraged by them.

Hmm yes. People stopped LISTENING a long time ago.

The trend is to talk at people not to listen to different opinions.

Mainly because they block everyone.

I find it interesting that Musk removed the block feature... People hate this but...

TrumptonsFireEngine · 07/11/2024 13:26

RedToothBrush · 07/11/2024 13:19

You knew when they ran out of steam - it was the point when they stopped pushing the benefits of Brexit and started the blame game against whoever they could pin it on with immigrants being top of the list.

Brexit was immediately overtaken by Covid. It was inevitable that corruption would occur in Covid when rules in place to prevent it were set aside to deal with the immediate crisis. It is then also inevitable that this would help push them out of office. I think that would have been the case whichever government was in power.

In terms of Brexit - immigration was a huge driving force for it and the Tories failed completely to manage it. Hence Reform’s success. I suspect Labour will be worse.